Author Topic: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?  (Read 6582 times)

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« on: Monday, May 04, 2009, 02:52:20 PM »
(Obviously I mean a 1.8" or 2.5" HDD replacement, not just a USB stick or something.)

I've been watching the SSD market for several months now, waiting for a drive with consistently good performance and a price of around $1/GB. So far I've discovered three things:
  • Many/most SSDs have extremely bad random-write performance (about 5-50 times slower than a hard drive - this is due partly to the inherent characteristics of SSDs, and partly to some really crappy flash chip controllers designed by JMicron).
  • Those drives that don't have random-write problems (any Intel drive, the OCZ Vertex, and arguably a few others) cost in the $3-4/GB range, with a few exceptions in the $10+ range.
  • Those drives that actually ARE worth buying are "the single most important upgrade you can make to your system," as I've heard from several people and seen in several benchmarks.


Well, I've got two things to say about this:
  • Anand is supposedly planning a major SSD roundup, which should work out once and for all whether any drives besides the X-25 and Vertex are worth anything.
  • There haven't been any major product refreshes in some time, which means the market is probably about to shift again.


There are also several really good articles on Anandtech, which I could provide if anyone is actually interested.
« Last Edit: Monday, May 04, 2009, 04:21:20 PM by WindAndConfusion »

Offline W7RE

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #1 on: Monday, May 04, 2009, 03:06:12 PM »
Iw as talking about this with my dad a few eweks ago. I don't really know much about the tech behind the drives, but I always thought that solid state was supposed to be faster, and I wondered about the possibility of using SS instead of what we use now (what do you call that, disc based?). I looked it up and found out that there are solid state drives available, but at a much higher price. So I kind of dropped the idea, thinking if we go that way eventually, it won't be until prices can drop quite a bit.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #2 on: Monday, May 04, 2009, 03:20:45 PM »
You don't want to buy an SSD without doing a lot of research on each particular drive, anyway. Some models (especially if they use the JMicron controller I bitched about earlier) have terrible random-write performance and can only do about five random writes per second. Since you can easily have 10-20 write requests going on at the same time, that means you can see disk latencies as high as 20 * 1/5th of a second = 4 seconds. Oh, and on most modern OSes, if a write request takes too long to complete, the whole system may hang.

So basically, a crappy SSD can make your whole system freeze for up to four seconds at a time in common situations, and even more in corner cases. (In testing, Anand managed to get the latency higher than sixty seconds.)

(For comparison, a mediocre laptop drive can do around 40-50 random writes per second, and a Velociraptor can do more like 200-300 per second. The OCZ Vertex can do around 600/sec, and the Intel drives can easily get over 4000/sec.)

Oh, and on most every model, random read performance is fantastic. The issues I describe only affect random writes, since writing to a flash chip can be so complicated (what with wear-leveling and the like).

Offline idolminds

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #3 on: Monday, May 04, 2009, 05:58:30 PM »
Yeah, poor SSDs are a bad thing. The one in my netbook causes lots of slowdowns. I've been looking into replacing it with a larger, better SSD or HDD.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #4 on: Monday, May 04, 2009, 08:39:45 PM »
Lets say (hypothetically) that I have 4 1/2 terabytes of pornography that I need to store somewhere else. Would a SSD be my best bet?

Offline TheOtherBelmont

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #5 on: Monday, May 04, 2009, 11:37:10 PM »
Lets say (hypothetically) that I have 4 1/2 terabytes of pornography that I need to store somewhere else. Would a SSD be my best bet?

No, you should back it up on my computer.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 01:23:41 PM »
I was all set to buy an Intel X-25M G2, but then this happened. Logically, I assume this is all the work of a big conspiracy to prevent me from getting an SSD. The bastards.

Also, I hear the OCZ Agility, Patriot Torqx, and a few other drives offer nearly the same performance as the OCZ Vertex (on account that they have the same Indilinx controller from the Vertex). Unfortunately, they are currently more expensive than the Intel drives, which is completely moronic, because not even the Vertex can quite keep up with the Intel drives. And Newegg is still charging $600 for the old X-25M G1 160GB, even though the G2 is about $150 cheaper, supports TRIM, and is all around faster.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 05:44:44 PM »
$500?  I'll take my $70 500 GB hdd, thanks.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 06:15:16 PM »
$460 with tax and shipping would be more accurate. And the price is half that if you can make do with 80GB, which is more than adequate if you have also have a HDD.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 08:25:53 PM »
I just upgraded from an 80 GB OS & app drive that was always full.  I have Windows 7 and two versions of Linux running on it now, with data on another 500 GB drive.

Solid state is the future for sure, but right now I just don't think it is very competitive.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 08:47:42 PM »
My issue with flash drives is the limited rewrite cycles inherent in that type of memory.  I thought maybe this problem was solved by now, but apparently not so.  (Middle of that page.)  The problem is mitigated a number of ways, but none of them solve it.  I'm not sure what they mean by SSDs based on DRAM not having this issue, though.  That's volatile as far as I know.  Must read some more . . .

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 08:54:23 PM »
Well if a SSD is based on DRAM, that means that it's like your regular RAM right?  Meaning a battery or constant utility power would have to keep a charge on the drive at all times in order to keep the data.  That's scary.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 09:00:22 PM »
Well if a SSD is based on DRAM, that means that it's like your regular RAM right?  Meaning a battery or constant utility power would have to keep a charge on the drive at all times in order to keep the data.  That's scary.

Oh yeah.  That would work, and it is scary.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 09:19:03 PM »
My issue with flash drives is the limited rewrite cycles inherent in that type of memory.  I thought maybe this problem was solved by now, but apparently not so.  (Middle of that page.)  The problem is mitigated a number of ways, but none of them solve it. 

Short answer: Flash endurance now far exceeds hard drive endurance. SSD longevity is not really a problem anymore. (Intel has a five-year warranty if you're still bothered. And maybe you'll be glad to hear that when a flash drive reaches the end of its useful life, you can* still read the last data you wrote to it. You won't just wake up and find all your data gone, like with a hard drive.)

*I'm not actually sure of this, on account that I've never heard of a modern SSD reaching the end of its lifespan, so I can't really evaluate the claim. But Intel's engineering specs on the X-25 seemed to make a compelling case that this is what will happen.

Quote
I'm not sure what they mean by SSDs based on DRAM not having this issue, though.  That's volatile as far as I know.  Must read some more . . .

DRAM is "solid-state," meaning that it has no moving components (AKA it's "solid"). Flash RAM is obviously not the same as DRAM, although it is also solid-state.

Well if a SSD is based on DRAM, that means that it's like your regular RAM right?  Meaning a battery or constant utility power would have to keep a charge on the drive at all times in order to keep the data.  That's scary.

OCZ made a drive like that. It's basically a 5.25" bay into which you insert DIMMs, with an optional HDD connector that runs off an on-board battery in case of power failure (the HDD spins up off battery power and starts copying the contents of your DRAM). The idea is that you get the speed of a RAMdrive while still being nonvolatile.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 09:26:09 PM »
OCZ made a drive like that. It's basically a 5.25" bay into which you insert DIMMs, with an optional HDD connector that runs off an on-board battery in case of power failure. The idea is that you get the speed of a RAMdrive while still being nonvolatile.
Non-volatile until the battery goes bad.  Weren't we just talking about this in relation to the iPod?  I guess as long as you use something like Symantec System Recovery or Acronis True Image to keep backup images of your SSD drive then it wouldn't be too bad.  But its definitely scary from a data-integrity perspective in any case.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 09:33:04 PM »
...Unless they use a NiCad battery and are careful never to fully charge or discharge it, in which case it will last until the end of time, rather like the battery packs Toyota uses in the Prius (which have proven to be about the most reliable part in the whole power train). Really, the engineering requirements for a single-purpose shallow-discharge battery are nowhere near as bad as the requirements for the battery in a consumer device, which has to have very deep charge/discharge cycles, charge very quickly, and remain at or near 100% charge for most of its working life (all of which have disastrous consequences for battery longevity).

In a set-up like that, I'd be a lot more worried about the disk drive failing.

But yeah, it's a stupid idea.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 09:51:19 PM »
As for the price, Anand and a number of others have called the X25 "the most cost-effective upgrade you can make to your computer," or something to that effect. And the few people I know that have purchased quality SSDs can't shut up about how good they are, which I find encouraging.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 07:37:49 AM »
I'm all for the idea.  It's about time, really.  As costs come down and the kinks get ironed out, they'll get too attractive to pass up.  Someday no one will remember what a seek time is.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 09:51:03 AM »
Right now I see four problems:

  • Cost per gigabyte in comparison to standard hard drives is significatly higher
  • Flash-based SSDs have a tendency to be slow to write to (in comparision to DRAM and standard hard drives)
  • Flash-based SSDs have a fairly limited number of read/writes in many cases
  • DRAM-based SSDs are not good for the integrity of important data

I agree that SSDs are the future.  No fragile moving parts to worry about or wear out.  Faster data access times.  Data anywhere on the SSD accessible at the same rate.  But until those four problems get ironed out with technological advances and economies of scale, it's really hard for me to even consider SSDs with the cost of standard hard drive being so ridiculously cheap per GB.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 10:38:05 AM »
  • Flash-based SSDs have a tendency to be slow to write to (in comparision to DRAM and standard hard drives)
Not correct. I mentioned this earlier. The Intel and Indilinx drives I mentioned (those would be the X25, Vertex, Falcon, Torqx, Agility, or a few others) are much faster than HDDs in terms of both read AND write performance. The X25 in particular has write performance utterly unlike anything a hard drive can do, which is why people are so interested in it. Here, look. This chart compares the performance of several high-quality SSDs against the WD Raptor. It looks at "4KB random writes," which are the most strenuous kind of IO (for both HDDs and SSDs) allowed under most filesystems:


(direct link)

At the bottom of the chart is a flash drive with a non-Indilinx and non-Intel controller. Just above that, second from the bottom, is the world's fastest consumer hard drive. The Indilinx drives are all several times faster, and then the Intel drives are multiple times faster than that.

Quote
  • Flash-based SSDs have a fairly limited number of read/writes in many cases
Reads are unlimited. Only erase cycles are limited. The X25 has a number of engineering features related to this, but the short of it is that it will last AT LEAST 10,000 write cycles per sector, which works out to around 30 years longevity assuming you write 80GB to it every day (and you bought the 80GB model). And since the drive fails on ERASE, chances are that when the drive finally becomes unwritable, you'll still have a very fast read-only copy of your data.

(More on the longevity issue: there is a feature on the X25 called "write endurance protection" which will give you a good balance of speed and performance if you are writing more than 300GB or so per day, but almost no one does that. There's is also another drive called the X-25 E, which uses SLC flash and has something like 10-20 times the write endurance. You're advised to use that one on a high-write server, but even if you do throw your X-25 M into completely the wrong job, and it fails within five years, you get another one free from Intel.)

Quote
  • Cost per gigabyte in comparison to standard hard drives is significatly higher

But cost per overall performance gain is better with SSDs than with any other upgrade you can make to most computers. So if you're looking for the most cost-effective way to make a computer faster, the best way to do that is to spend a ludicrous amount of money per GB.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 11:05:10 AM »
Not correct. I mentioned this earlier. The Intel and Indilinx drives I mentioned (those would be the X25, Vertex, Falcon, Torqx, Agility, or a few others) are much faster than HDDs in terms of both read AND write performance. The X25 in particular has write performance utterly unlike anything a hard drive can do, which is why people are so interested in it. Here, look. This chart compares the performance of several high-quality SSDs against the WD Raptor. It looks at "4KB random writes," which are the most strenuous kind of IO (for both HDDs and SSDs) allowed under most filesystems:


(direct link)

At the bottom of the chart is a flash drive with a non-Indilinx and non-Intel controller. Just above that, second from the bottom, is the world's fastest consumer hard drive. The Indilinx drives are all several times faster, and then the Intel drives are multiple times faster than that.
If you get one with an Inilinix (sp?) chip, right?  You said yourself earlier in this thread that most SSDs have extremely poor random read performance.

Offline iPPi

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 11:12:15 AM »
&hd=1

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 11:41:17 AM »
Intel or Indilinx. And actually Samsung's controllers are OK - their random write performance is weaker than a regular hard drive's, but they make up for it with stellar random read performance. The controllers to avoid are those made by JMicron.

And it's random write performance you need to keep an eye on, not random read performance.


Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 12:45:40 PM »
Yeah random write is what I meant, sorry.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #24 on: Monday, August 03, 2009, 04:06:05 PM »
Just a random curiosity: The OCZ Throttle is a USB thumb drive with an optional eSATA connection. You can connect it to any SATA motherboard with a fairly standard cable, and if you can figure out how to power it (it uses the 5v rail off of USB), you could use it as an internal SATA drive at a fraction of the cost of a regular SSD. It has terrible random write performance, like all cheap SSDs, but it also has fantastic random-read performance.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/05/usb-flash-drive-roundup.ars/3

If I'm ever sufficiently bored, I might buy one of these, dig out an old hard drive, and see if I can MacGuyver up a hybrid drive.
« Last Edit: Monday, August 03, 2009, 04:42:26 PM by WindAndConfusion »

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #25 on: Monday, August 03, 2009, 04:17:50 PM »
I have an OCZ Rally2, but I never knew it could be used eSATA.  Great USB thumb drive overall though, much faster than anything I've used before.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #26 on: Monday, August 03, 2009, 04:42:54 PM »
Correction, it's the OCZ Throttle.

I get confused because OCZ makes so much weird shit.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #27 on: Monday, August 03, 2009, 04:49:19 PM »
Just a random curiosity: The OCZ Throttle is a USB thumb drive with an optional eSATA connection. You can connect it to any SATA motherboard with a fairly standard cable, and if you can figure out how to power it (it uses the 5v rail off of USB), you could use it as an internal SATA drive at a fraction of the cost of a regular SSD. It has terrible random write performance, like all cheap SSDs, but it also has fantastic random-read performance.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/05/usb-flash-drive-roundup.ars/3

If I'm ever sufficiently bored, I might buy one of these, dig out an old hard drive, and see if I can MacGuyver up a hybrid drive.
It's too bad it doesn't support regular SATA ports as well because many USB add-on cards have an internal USB port,* meaning that the included cable would have enabled the drive to work internally if you had such an add-on card.


* I never really understood what you would use an internal USB port for.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Has anyone looked into/purchased a Solid-State Drive?
« Reply #28 on: Monday, August 03, 2009, 06:38:34 PM »
eSATA and regular SATA are basically compatible. You just need an eSATA-to-SATA cable (that is short enough to be within the SATA specification!), and you need to make sure that the controller and host device are on the same electrical ground (eSATA is somewhat forgiving about this stuff, SATA is not - this shouldn't be an issue for an internalized drive, though).

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Can you die from boredom?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday, August 04, 2009, 03:45:59 PM »
So I've been doing a lot of programming lately. It's an embedded device. The fun thing about embedded programming on this device is that it involves a ridiculous number of libraries and other little files which need to be read or written.

Every time I press "build," my hard drive thrashes for 11 minutes. It's almost all random IO.

I did almost 30 builds yesterday.

I want an SSD.