Topic: Left 4 Dead 2 announced

[MysterD]

It also seems to me that because many of you believe Stardock to be the antiValve, many of their faults are really glossed over. Though it has to be said, that I am probably alone in this opinion as far as I know, so I am probably off the mark.

No, I'd say GOG is the Anti-Valve.

[angrykeebler]

I've had no problems with Steam. I kinda like it now. That is all.

[MysterD]

I've had no problems with Steam. I kinda like it now. That is all.

I think -- yeah, just like most things in life -- Steam has its pro's and con's. There's a lot to like about it -- and a lot to not like about it.

[idolminds]

That was quick. I got a response from Valve already. Looks like it go passed to John Cook whos the "Online Development Manager".

Thanks for the feedback, we know that Steam has a few different issues with slower connections. Unfortunately these aren't small issues, they're taking a while to work through. We do plan on updating the Steam client first with more information about exactly what is being downloaded, and then we'll update with some improvements to how clients start/stop getting content, as well as more controls over what to update how much and when. Thank you for your patience in this.

[PyroMenace]

I've had no problems with Steam. I kinda like it now. That is all.

Reported.

[MysterD]

Idol, it's good to see you got a quick reaction from Valve and all. Now, I hope they do help you slow-connection people out and all, sometime soon. Knowing Valve - yeah, it might unfortunately be while...

[Quemaqua]

I probably do get a little vocal about it at times, and I know I'm definitely the biggest anti-fan of Valve here.  I should probably try to tone it down also if it's annoying people, I just didn't think I was doing it that much.

I was talking with idol the other night and realized that a big part of it is that a lot of folks here post in maybe one out of every 10 threads, give or take.  I post in probably 8 or 9 out of 10 because ever since we had that big deficiency in post rate a while back, I made a conscious effort to post as much as I could to keep up the various conversations that go on (note the post count).  I mean, I don't try to spam or anything, and I prefer to contribute something rather than make vacuous statements or repeat points already made, but even if I'm not being belligerent I'm probably just being... around more than I should, at least considering the average post rate.  So a few comments spread across a few threads probably end up as a much bigger ratio here than they would at other forums I post at, where a little of my ever so lovable hate just gets lost in the shuffle.

Anyway, I have never wanted to annoy anybody, but again, just because something isn't pro-Valve doesn't mean it's specifically anti-Valve.  I think they make pretty decent games, but I also think they screw up some of their pretty decent games, and I've commented on balance issues and the like (I particularly think the way they've handled TF2 is idiotic), and those opinions have to do with my opinions on design, not specifically on Valve.  But I guess it's hard to separate one rant from another.

Also, what is it about Stardock that upsets you, Pug?  Thus far I have exactly one issue with them: they charge ridiculous amounts of shipping if you want to do a box/download combo over Impulse.  It's like ten bucks.  This is literally the only thing I've ever had against them (and I've bitched about it a couple times).  Demigod's initial release was a bit of a downer, but they fixed it and were incredibly communicative and apologetic during the entire process.  I can't think of anything else that could even be considered negative, at this point.  It'd be nice if Impulse had more games, but with the Demigod fiasco over I think they're making a big push on that front, and that's not entirely their fault anyway.  Impulse isn't as robust as Steam yet, but features are definitely coming in as things go, and I have no issues with the program otherwise.  It outperforms Steam in every other way as far as download speeds, stability, resource usage, user preference, etc.  So I honestly don't see that I've had anything to bitch about.  They don't get a free pass either if they fuck up, but thus far I can honestly say I've had nothing but pleasant surprises from them.  The day they screw something up and don't handle it right is the day I start getting pissy.

Nice to see you got a response already, idol.  I sent them something a while back and got no response.

[angrykeebler]

Nice to see you got a response already, idol.  I sent them something a while back and got no response.

Did you threaten bodily harm or something similar? FESS UP

[Quemaqua]

Shocking though I know it must be, I was actually rather polite and reasonable.

[Xessive]

Shocking though I know it must be, I was actually rather polite and reasonable.

Hehe Que asking for some L4D content:

"Please sir, can I have some more?"

It is pretty impressive they got back to you so quickly, Idol. Maybe's Que's message fell in line with hundreds of other messages they received, in terms of subject matter.

Idol, what did you type into your subject line?

EDIT:
The L4D2 Boycott group now has over 21,000 members! We're going strong!

[idolminds]

My subject line was "Feedback from dialup" since thats really all I was giving. Just pointed out where I felt Steam could be improved for people with slow connections while not impacting high speed users in any way.

[scottws]

Has Valve ever publicly given a reason why they require games to be fully updated before they are playable?

[idolminds]

They haven't really talked specifically on that point, but they made a big deal about Steam allowing them to ensure everyone is running the same version of a game. I imagine it helps when bug reports are filed, but other than that it can be  pain.

I also don't like it because if a mod stops development and the engine gets an update that breaks the mod, then there is no way to ever play it again since you can't keep the old version where it works. I remember back in the HL1 days Valve made a big update that broke a lot of mods and it wasn't until months later that they could get working versions (if they were still under development). The only mod that got special treatment was CS, and that was before Valve bought em out. Helps to explain its popularity when for a while it was the only mod in town.

[MysterD]

To Idol:
I bet that's exactly what it's for -- so that the newest version is the one the bugs are always being reported on to Valve, which is smart. Also, it makes it easy that Joe Gamer who is not computer savvy doesn't have to do much on his end to get updates to the newest version.

Though, yeah -- power-users might hate that b/c they are getting stuff forced on them, whether they like it or not. Especially b/c new versions might break an awesome mod, as you mentioned -- and you're stuck with using latest version of said game. Also, if the newest version has a nasty new issue/bug/problem introduced (for some reason) -- especially if it's specific to a certain set of hardware, software, drivers, or whatever you're running -- yeah, you might not be happy that you can't resort to an older version that'll actually work correctly.

[Xessive]

To Idol:
I bet that's exactly what it's for -- so that the newest version is the one the bugs are always being reported on to Valve, which is smart. Also, it makes it easy that Joe Gamer who is not computer savvy doesn't have to do much on his end to get updates to the newest version.

Though, yeah -- power-users might hate that b/c they are getting stuff forced on them, whether they like it or not. Especially b/c new versions might break an awesome mod, as you mentioned -- and you're stuck with using latest version of said game. Also, if the newest version has a nasty new issue/bug/problem introduced (for some reason) -- especially if it's specific to a certain set of hardware, software, drivers, or whatever you're running -- yeah, you might not be happy that you can't resort to an older version that'll actually work correctly.

It's not just power users MyD, anyone who has a relatively slow connection. I've always preferred separate update downloads primarily because updates and patches have been getting huge, and sometimes I like to enjoy a game while the patch is en route then only worrry about installing it later at my convenience. For multiplayer-only stuff it makes sense, just like MMO's the launcher always auto-updates the game. However, it's not a great policy for singleplayer games (unless you have a blazing fast connection and you don't give a crap), as Pug mentioned, sometimes late at night I just want to have a quickie, maybe 15 mins, and the damn thing decides it's update time.

[MysterD]

It's not just power users MyD, anyone who has a relatively slow connection. I've always preferred separate update downloads primarily because updates and patches have been getting huge, and sometimes I like to enjoy a game while the patch is en route then only worrry about installing it later at my convenience. For multiplayer-only stuff it makes sense, just like MMO's the launcher always auto-updates the game. However, it's not a great policy for singleplayer games (unless you have a blazing fast connection and you don't give a crap), as Pug mentioned, sometimes late at night I just want to have a quickie, maybe 15 mins, and the damn thing decides it's update time.

All great points -- agreed with you on all of this.

The other thing is with new patches, sometimes your old saves are just no good anymore and they won't work. So, upgrading to a new patch might not be something you want forced on you -- especially if you're already a good portion through the game.

[Xessive]

The other thing is with new patches, sometimes your old saves are just no good anymore and they won't work. So, upgrading to a new patch might not be something you want forced on you -- especially if you're already a good portion through the game.

Yep, which happened to me with Fallout 3. LIVE decided it wouldn't let the game load up unless I updated. Normally I'd just click "Later" and move on but for some reason it prompted me with something along the lines of "If you click CANCEL the game will close until you update." So I downloaded the update, let the installer do its thing, copied the Patch file from the temp folder for future reference, then reloaded FO3 only to find that all of my saves bring my character out in the middle of the wasteland (nothing to do with the little save screenshots) in awkward places i.e. clipped inside a bridge or something, and if I pressed any of the move keys it crashes. Sorry, I wnet off on a tangent but going along with your point the save incompatibility can be a bitch.

[MysterD]

Bah, X -- that freakin' sucks.

[MysterD]

Gabe Newell interview here with G4TV on all kinds of topics -- L4D2, piracy, games as a service, not gonna talk about HL2: Ep 3, etc etc.

[Quemaqua]

"Games as a service" is a phrase that sends me into a psychotic frenzy.  Instead of saying anything else, I'll just stop there.

[Xessive]

Newell: We’re always going look at what makes sense to do and how to manage that transition.

Riiiiight.. Having L4D and L4D2 run and supported simultaneously makes a lot of sense.

Newell: You have these complicated situations and on PC it’s not so bad. On the Xbox it’s a lot more complicated because you can’t guarantee that people have all of the right content given their DLC model, where some people might have some content and others not, which makes it end of up with this weird, complicated thing where this person has this, and this person has this. Where as on the PC we can assume that people have everything. So, we’re trying to get that fixed because they’re sort of cramping our ability to push more free content into customer’s hands when we aren’t sure which free content they have right? And the stuff that you’re allowed to require customer’s to have on the Xbox, it’s only 8MB. That’s the maximum size you can ever change.

So Newell's reasoning for making L4D2 a completely separate product instead of DLC is due to the X360 counterpart and XLIVE's DLC model, not the PC version. If this is the argument then L4D2 should be available only on the X360 while the PC version of L4D should receive an update to v2.0 which includes all the content. At least that way the X360 players can only blame Microsoft for the DLC model, which I've already heard a lot of complaints about.

It's very unlikely that they'll do that since screwing everyone who already bought the game on PC is a more lucrative option, at least in the short run.

Anyway, that excuse regarding which players have what content is not very strong considering the way other developers have handled it. For example Street Fighter 4, the extra costumes have to be purchased but suppose I haven't purchased that doesn't prevent a player who ahs from using it. Basically all players have the content but only some have paid to use it. I'm not a fan of this method but it nullifies Gabe's argument.

"Games as a service" is a phrase that sends me into a psychotic frenzy.  Instead of saying anything else, I'll just stop there.

Yeah, seriously what the fuck is that supposed to mean?! "Games as a service" my ass.

[Quemaqua]

Valve doesn't have a leg to stand on if they're trying to inject reason into the way they've handled this franchise.  Everything they've said thus far can, I think, be quite fairly considered bullshit.

[Xessive]

Valve doesn't have a leg to stand on if they're trying to inject reason into the way they've handled this franchise.  Everything they've said thus far can, I think, be quite fairly considered bullshit.

I'm inclined to agree with you. It's just a feeble attempt at damage control.

If they really wanted to demonstrate some small gesture of care or concern for the PC L4D players then the least they can do is give all owners of L4D a coupon for L4D2, full and free of charge. Otherwise they're going to distabilize the player base and lose a lot of supporters.

[MysterD]

Yeah, seriously what the fuck is that supposed to mean?! "Games as a service" my ass.

Not in Valve's case for L4D. They ain't treating L4D like a "service." The point of trying to treat a "game as a service" is to patch often, update game often, add some new free DLC at least here and there (or quite often, better yet -- which Valve hasn't done with L4D). I think this new buzz phrase is to speak to the gamer that Version 1.00 is NOT the last version you'll see from the dev's, either -- which is what us gamers want.

If anything, for how to do "Games as a service" correctly, they should look at Witcher DLC and the Sacred 2's patches adding extra content/quests with each patch -- all which are FREE for owners of the game, I might add.

I think the point is by the dev's doing all this constant updating, patching, and DLC, hackers and crackers are gonna have to do A LOT to keep up with all this stuff to have the newest latest-greatest version of the game -- to the point the hackers/crackers can't keep up with it, so gamers just go out and buy the real copy so they can stay up-to-date as much as they can with it. It's a way to try and steer people away from pirating the game. Also, by filtering these updates through very few channels -- i.e. you get patches for Steam games only through Steam, you get get patches of Impulse games through Impulse only, etc etc -- it makes life harder for the pirate. I mean, these two (Steam and Impulse) do it in such a way, you don't get separate patch files anymore there -- nope, it just goes right into the game folder, so you'd have to back-up your game entirely to have newest said version of a game. I think THIS is what "Games as a service" is, myself -- if you want your game with the most support, you buy the game and you are going to get it directly from the source and nowhere else.

[scottws]

Isn't "games as a service" a specific market in the vein of "software as a service"?  Basically renting the game, like how anti-virus software works?  Or how maintenance contracts on business software works?  That's how I understand it.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that's how I've understood it.  I think the push is to get games traditionally not in that model... well, into it.  Take a more subscriber-based approach to things that didn't used to go that route, or sell things digitally with less content and promise more down the road, either for free or for pay depending.  I am not a fan of these methods in any capacity.

[scottws]

For me, it depends on how it works out.  I have experience in IT in the business world, where "software as a service" is already around.  Every piece of software doesn't work this way.  The whole market isn't this way.  But some is.

Take Symantec Backup Exec for instance.  It is a set cost for the main product, and different options cost additional money.  You also can buy a maintenance contract.  This is basically where the "software as a service" comes in.  What the maintenance contract does is get you technical support (in the business software world, tech support is a huge business and is never free) and gets you free upgrades to the software.  So you have an initial cost for the software, and then you have the option pay an annual fee to maintain tech support and free upgrades whenever there is a new major release (like v11 to v12).  You don't have to do this, but if you don't at some point you're going to be in a situation where you need tech support or you need to upgrade because you need a feature in the new version or you need to move to a new OS and your version doesn't work on it.  Now you're going to have to buy all that crap again.  And that shit isn't cheap.  We're talking $1,000 per server for the basic software, plus $1,000 - $3,000 per option.  This software in particular easily gets up over $10,000.  Maintenance contracts for it depend on the level of tech support you request and the number of servers, but are usually around $300 - $400/yr.  So it's worth it in this case because the value of the contract is almost priceless, especially when you consider that in this case if you don't renew it, you can never get it again until you buy new software.

For some other software, it doesn't work as well.  Take Diskeeper.  It's a good product.  The server edition is several hundred dollars, and you can get a maintenance contract like you can with Symantec products that gives you tech support and upgrades.  It's about $100/yr.  In this case it's isn't really worth it because the initial cost isn't that high so buying a new version every few years isn't a big deal and it's not a mission critical product so if it breaks, just not using it doesn't make you sweat bullets like not backing up anything does.  There just isn't a lot of value in the maintenance contract.

In the games realm, I could see software as a service working if there is good value.  If they provide lots of content updates like characters, locales, weapons, expansions, technical updates, etc. for a periodic fee, it might be worth it in some cases.  It could work if they still offer the traditional option to buy these components separately at a greatly increased cost (or rather the cost we are accustomed to now, with the periodic fee showing a big savings over time).

[Quemaqua]

To me, these things reek of "We expect you to be dedicated to our product", and that's the absolute antithesis of me as a gamer, therefore that's one of the several big issues I have.  I'm not generally dedicated to products and I don't want to look and see what I want in bits and pieces out of a game.  I want you to give me the well thought out experience you intended when you made it; and if you didn't have one, I don't want your likely very shitty and pointless game in the first place.

[gpw11]

Once you get into high end specialized software it gets even more fucked up.  For instance, Timberline is estimating software that combines a database and a spreadsheet.  Basically, you use the spreadsheet to format your estimates and all your formulas and prices are automatically pulled from whatever database you specify.  If your other option is using a combination of access and excel Timberline is probably a ten times more efficient.

Their pricing has been revamped, but how it used to work was you were charged based on how much money it saved you.  Like, if you were a mid sized operation with ten full time estimators on staff, you could cut that number down to 4 if you were using Timberline. Hence, your license would be something like 40% of the potential wages (6 people's salaries) saved over the year.  There was also an outright purchase option, but it was ridiculous apparently and no one did it.  As you can imagine, for many large international companies paying into this made no sense at all because 40% of, say, 100 people's wages is a lot of fucking money and it was just cheaper to pay someone to develop some propriety software for you to use and train your people to use it...hence the revamp. 

[MysterD]

WTF?!?!?!

 

[Quemaqua]

"Poor Valve".  Nice unbiased journalism.

But yeah, that's pretty stupid.  The ESRB is rather incomprehensible at times.

[Pugnate]

Wait, that wasn't sarcasm from Joystiq? For some reason I thought it was.

[PyroMenace]

Haha, I actually do listen to their podcast every now and again. I don't know why I do since they insult the people who email them on the show which I think is childish of them.

[MysterD]

G4TV - Sessler's take on L4D2 Boycott...

[PyroMenace]

He missed the point. It's like I said, if Valve had never made a big point at creating something you plan on adding future content to then I wouldn't have a problem. It don't feel like I am entitled to anything, but if your going to be a business then have some decency to be honest to your consumers. Can I get that at least or am I being too selfish and whiney?

[MysterD]

Pyro, I agree 100% with you.

[Pugnate]

He missed the point. It's like I said, if Valve had never made a big point at creating something you plan on adding future content to then I wouldn't have a problem. It don't feel like I am entitled to anything, but if your going to be a business then have some decency to be honest to your consumers. Can I get that at least or am I being too selfish and whiney?

I wish these "journalists" would do some research before going on record sounding like idiots.

[Quemaqua]

Same situation as the Diablo III graphics presentation.  So many journalists responded calling us a bunch of whiny dipshits, but they all totally missed the point.  Bad example since a lot of other folks disagreed too, but it feels similar to this.

Journalists seem to have an uncanny knack for not getting these things, and I think a lot of it stems from the fact that this is what they do for a living.  They almost never understand the concept of a good cash to gameplay ratio because they play everything and are always getting at least some games for free entirely.  The perceived value of a game is usually lost on them because of perspective.

[scottws]

I hate that guy anyway.  Do you ever see the shirts he wears?

[MysterD]

Que, I agree with you 100%.

I often wonder how many games these journalists, reviewers, and whatnot actually wind-up buying in the long-run, you know?

I'm sure there must be an instance where they just ain't handed a damn game from the dev's or a publisher and they just wind up and forking some $ over for it.