Topic: Left 4 Dead 2 announced

[Quemaqua]

That about sums it up for me.  I still don't admit that L4D2 is a new game, however.  I've watched plenty of video at this point and there is very, very little that qualifies as new.  I mean in any real regard.  You're still doing the exact same thing with very slight augmentations to the gameplay and story/atmosphere/whatever.  And even the "new" stuff doesn't feel very fresh or original on the whole.  It's neither exciting nor innovative, and in my opinion at least, doesn't look any different from the original game at all in any significant element.  I can't speak to the volume of content because I don't have it, but even if it is bigger that only makes it look good in comparison to the anemic first game, which as mentioned we all paid way too fucking much for.  I'd say that L4D2 is worth $30 for sure, but the original wasn't worth any more than the same, and by comparison now seems like an even worse value than it originally was.  And yet we still have nothing to justify that purchase, only a new product we're expected to shell out for which still isn't worth the asking price.

I'd say it's a shame, because I did have a lot of fun playing the first game with Pyro and Idol, but to be perfectly honest, we've got Borderlands now, which feels really similar in terms of the goals of fun coop play, but with so much more actual game behind it it isn't even funny.  I see absolutely no logical reason to give these fuckwits any more money.

[idolminds]

I agree, most of his reasons only look good when compared to L4D1 which ends up looking like paying to play a beta or prototype. No shit people are pissed about that.

I can't believe the site put up such an obvious fanboy article.

[MysterD]

D agrees w/ Que and Idol.

Thank God I only paid $10 for L4D1....

[gpw11]

Destructiod is nothing more than a blogging site and really never will be anything else. As for the article, the guy is a clown that needs to get off of Gabe's dick. He's either an idiot or works for Valve.  Left 4 Dead 2 does have new content, but that's not the complaint that people are making here.  The complaint is that we never got what we were promised with Left 4 Dead and the only excuse for that would be if there was some grand vision that Valve had for a sequel and as such couldn't dedicate the resources.  That didn't happen.  Instead, what we got was a new game with some new content and assets, but no real groundbreaking gameplay or graphical improvements.  That'd be fine....in another year or so, after Left 4 Dead had more content added to it. 

What this guy doesn't realize is people aren't really pissed over L4D2 itself, but pissed that we got burned by Valve on the first.  The release of L4D2 marks the end of the lifespan of the first game; Servers are more empty and everyone knows there won't be any content updates.  THAT'S what people are pissed about.  The announcement killed the value of the first game, and Valve didn't offer anything (like expansion pricing) to compensate for that.

As for his argument, it's stupid and we don't need to waste any time on it save to say that sequels often suck ass and aren't worth what they charge for them.  You also can't compare the effects of a sequel for a SP game to one which is completely online. If Blizzard released WoW 2 a year after WoW and stopped supporting it you'd bet people would be pissed. 

[Xessive]

If Blizzard released WoW 2 a year after WoW and stopped supporting it you'd bet people would be pissed. 

Oh man, could you imagine?! That could cause a backlash that would ripple outside of the gaming community! We'd hear about it on the evening news! haha

Most (if not all) of the features of L4D2 were things that were promised for L4D1. There were a lot of discussions back in Dec2008/Jan2009 in the official forums about content for L4D1, which suspiciously matches a lot of the stuff now in L4D2. Aside from being totally stiffed for buying the original, now I feel cheated.

Either way, I'm bored of it and I doubt I'll get into L4D2. As Que pointed out, no sense in wasting any more money on the shit.

Also, in agreement, Borderlands is way more fun!

[gpw11]

Honestly, this is probably the kind of guy who looks at a car purchase as an investment.

[MysterD]

GPW and X pretty much hit the hammer right on the nail, if you ask me.

Also, if L4D1's campaign mode was say the standard 8-10 hours (or more), I don't think anybody would've been really bitching about the game at all. All that Versus, Survival, and anything else then threw in would've been gravy on top. B/c if you ask me, Campaign Mode is where it's at for L4D - and probably always will be.

I really would like to see BOTS be improved in L4D series or be able to give them commands like "be more aggressive", "stand closer to me", "spread out", "stand further back" or whatever - nothing TOO extensive like other strategy-style FPS's, just simple stuff. B/c really - the teammate AI in L4D1 was just way too laid back. From what we've heard and read, don't sound like the teammate AI is much better in L4D2, either.

[gpw11]

"We'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead [as TF2] where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time,"

-Valve, before the release of L4D


I don't know how this guy doesn't get that this is what people are pissed over. Look, it'd be one thing if Valve said something like "We're looking into DLC at this point", but you don't promise something like that and not deliver. No one didn't think the game was light on content from the get go, but they invested because like TF2, they believed it would flesh out over time....because Valve said it would.

Instead, they took all that content and sold it for full price.  I played the demo again a bit today, and it's good.  It's better than L4D1 and there is a fair amount of new content there...but no one is arguing there isn't. This guy's entire article is a giant strawman.

[Quemaqua]

Not to mention I'm still fucking pissed they released the game without full content, even.  2 full campaigns not even playable in versus?  What the bleeding fuck?  And then when you make them playable finally you act like you're giving us all a gift?  Fuck these people.  I truly want nothing more to do with them ever again.  I only get angrier about it as I go, not the other way around.

[W7RE]

I was just watching some footage of cut content from HL2, and there's a part with the Half-Life zombies. You know what? Valve did zombies better in Half-Life 2 than they did in Left 4 Dead.

OK, the models and gore are better in L4D (they look like dead humans instead of having an alien parasite attached to their head, and there's dismemberment in L4D2). But in HL2, the mood was creepy and the zombies were a threat even though they were slow. I would have had a shitload more fun with L4D if it had a slower pace with slower zombies.

Ravenholm, for those who haven't seen it in a while.
Damn, even the music in that section is amazing.





Maybe part of it is that I don't watch horror movies or play scary games to get scared. I watch/play them to take in the atmosphere and special effects. Yelling "BOO!" doesn't scare me. I really appreciate some creepy ass tension though, and L4D doesn't have that.

[MysterD]

Ravenholm levels in HL2 are awesome, I must say.
Me, I'd love to see some real slow-ass zombies make their way into the Left 4 Dead series.

[Quemaqua]

Well said, W7.  I agree.  Ravenholm was probably my favorite part of HL2, and it was legitimately tense.  L4D is lots of fun, but I'm still waiting for my multiplayer horde-of-slow-zombies shooter.  We need an accurate simulation of the apocalypse, damn it.  How else are we going to train?

[MysterD]

I also loved the way you could use the gravity gun to your advantage to so many different objects in the environment and everything in Ravenholm.

It was memorable, spinning a stationary saw blade w/ your gravity gun and having zombies just walk the hell into it.

[Schlotzky5]

Ravenholm was definetly one of the best parts of HL2. I dont think it did zombies better than L4D though. HL2 was slower paced, and it had an emphasis on puzzles and keys and all that junk. L4D is great at giving you that feeling of 'holy shit, run, I just want to live 10 seconds longer'. I guess its not an issue of better or worse, its just different.

I guess there could be a L4D type game without the running zombies, but it would be tough. You would have to give players much less ammo and decrease the power of the weapons. You would have to slow down the player speed a lot too. Somebody will try it.

[idolminds]

I hope so. I think it could work. Fast zombies are "scary" because they trigger the fight or flight response. Slow zombies are scary because they might be slow and dumb, but they never stop. Dont feel pain like you, dont need sleep and food like you, and eventually they will catch you. You have to stop sometime.

With that in mind a co-op zombie game with slow zombies would need to imitate that. Its a game so you as a player character can go just as long as the zombies can. You need to add in some things like from The Ship. Add stamina so you can't run indefinitely. Limited ammo, healing kits, whatever. Something to keep you pushing forward and exploring.

They could have some fun with the zombie AI as well. Make it attracted to sounds. Make the player think if he should spend a few shots to clear the way with the drawback of drawing in zombies from surrounding areas.

And as much as I hate it, you need to take into account something the zombies have a lot of and the players/survivors wont: time. Time limits. Someone is sick and you need to get medicine, or you need to reach a group of survivors before they get overrun (or before they leave to find others, leaving you behind). Its all about making interesting choices for the player to make. You could fight this horde of zombies, but you might need the ammo later. You could go the long way around but you do need to keep moving because you only have another 10 minutes to complete the objective. But will the fight be any faster?

THAT is the kind of thing that could make for an interesting game.

[MysterD]

Give me a game w/ a nice mix and variety of slow zombies, medium-speed zombies, and fast zombies.

[W7RE]

In related news, I just played through the L4D2 demo for like the 5th or 6th time. I hate myself for enjoying it.

[MysterD]

In related news, I just played through the L4D2 demo for like the 5th or 6th time. I hate myself for enjoying it.

I'm waiting for my copy of L4D2 PC to arrive soon - probably in next few days...

[Quemaqua]

Traitors.

But yeah, i think idol's on the right track.  You only need to balance two basic things to get a proper zombie game going: what you have versus what you need.  The thing dividing the two is the zombie horde, and if you're ever not pressing forward, the zombies should be pressing in.  And if they're pressing in, the resources you have should be diminishing, thereby increasing your need to replenish those resources, thus driving you into further conflict.  The process never ends because the horde never stops.  The only conceivable end is the completion of a final goal so drastic that it changes the course of the invasion, at least as far as your group goes.  Get to a radio tower and contact help, blow up a bridge as you cross it to at least slow down the zombies trapped on the other side, get your hands on weaponry good enough to get you to the next town, get to transportation that can get you out of dodge.

The zombie horde mechanics shouldn't be that tough to nail if you plan it out well enough beforehand.  You need to balance the resources players have versus how many zombies there are, and that number will fluctuate based on whether or not you have a big open world with groups of zombies or a small enclosed world (ala L4D) where they're just spawning in periodically.  In the 2nd case your job is easy.  Give players very little time to breathe.  They defeat a group of zombies and may get a second of quiet, but soon another huge group will begin to shamble through buildings, around corners, from the sewers, invariably drawn toward the living bodies of the players.  They can't go on killing forever because they don't have unlimited ammo, and being stationary equals death.  If you keep the pressure up, you're good to go.  Zombies shouldn't die instantly unless players are shotgunning the head off.  Even pistols shouldn't insta-kill with headshots, IMO.  Might take 2 shots, not just 1, and body shots should do very little.  10 bullets doesn't do squat, 15 only marginally more, and only maybe 20 will start to get someone somewhere.  Unless they're managing to blow off limbs, which should drop zombies and slow them, but not necessarily kill them.  Even if they blow off two legs and an arm, walking over that zombie in the future should tangle up their feet and make it that much easier for the horde to overwhelm them.

I don't think it would be all that hard.  Someone just has to want to stop being fucking lazy about zombies and do the shit right.  God knows it won't be Valve.

[MysterD]

I say Que should start the OWNet Game Studios and we all should work together on The Que Zombie Game.

[MysterD]

So, I've got about almost 7 hours put into L4D2 PC - these past two days. Namely, first two Campaigns of L4D2 - Dead Center and Dark Carnival. Dead Center has 4 parts to it, while Dark Carnival has 5 parts to it. I ain't played the other 3 campaign yet - so, no comment on those last 3...yet.

Here's what it comes down to - if you liked L4D1, you'll obviously like this. How can you not, honestly? It's basically more of the same - but done w/ better in execution. Not much in the gameplay department has really changed. It's just Valve decided to throw in more of everything - few new enemies, few new gun-weapons, melee weapons, new MP game-mode, and the 5 new campaigns.

Best thing to happen to L4D2 is melee weapons. I really did wish Borderlands had these - namely for Brick, since he's more or less a melee expert (with his fists) - but yeah, melee weapons in L4D2 rock. The melee weapons in L4D2 are awesome for battles hordes - which since to come in flocks quite often. Axes, guitars, baseball bats, cricket bats, - and especially the chainsaw - if they are coming at you, your best bet is often to switch to melee and go nuts. Prepare to mow 'em down.

Speaking of hordes, this leads me to my next point - difficulty. L4D2 really feels like it was made for veteran players of L4D1. In L4D1, Normal felt like a good place to start for gamers - while, I don't think the same can be said for L4D2. L4D2 on Normal Difficulty feels like L4D1 did on Advanced - hell, maybe even tougher. On Normal in L4D2, you WILL need to push back enemies and then shoot/swing OFTEN - which was basically necessary to survive in L4D1 on Advanced. It was tough enuff w/ The Smoker being able to make you unable to really do anything until a teammate helps - but toss in the fact now you got new enemies like The Charger and Jockey - it gets even harder b/c they render you useless w/ one special attack. You're even more so in for a challenge b/c these enemies hit you with their special attack, if nobody helps you, you're screwed no matter how much health you have - b/c a teammate must help you so you can get free. The Spitter just can do acid damage on you, basically - and you step on its acid puddles, expect to get burned for some damage.

The defibrillator item feels very necessary b/c you and your teammates WILL get knocked down and will eventually die. Expect to get knocked down OFTEN. And the AI Director really feels like it always wants to throw the kitchen sink at you - even on Normal. I ain't tried Easy here in L4D2, so...I dunno' how hard or easy it really is or isn't.

From what I've played, L4D2 is definitely an improvement on L4D1. L4D2 is obviously the better game here and packs more content right in the box and all. One thing the original L4D1 had is missing this time around in L4D2 - the fresh feeling of playing something brand new that really made the first game so great (despite its short length and lack of content). A lot of the formula, style, structure, and whatnot you found in L4D1 is also here in L4D2 - even if there's a few very small minor little tweaks and changes to it. Also, I really do wish they could've found some way to improve the storytelling aspect in this game w/out the expense of sacrificing any of the gameplay of course - even though the stories all do connect here, it doesn't feel like much was changed here w/ making the story anything spectacular as there's not a hell of a lot really to it here.

Is L4D2 worth my $30? So far, it sure feels like its worth (stand-alone) expansion-pack pricing. I'm still having a blast and a lot of zombie-killing fun, regardless.

[Pugnate]

Isn't fist fighting zombies... stupid?

[W7RE]

One thing the original L4D1 had is missing this time around in L4D2 - the fresh feeling of playing something brand new that really made the first game so great (despite its short length and lack of content).

You know, I sort of get that feeling playing the demo. I guess it's because I never played that much L4D1 and it's been almost a year. So now I'm trying it out and it feels fresh, and more fun.

[MysterD]

Isn't fist fighting zombies... stupid?

Well, that's Brick's best skill in Borderlands - b/c his fists do MASSIVE damage in Berserk mode and his swings are quick. So, punching zombies in the head - yeah, probably a good idea - since that is a zombie's weakpoint. I'll have to try this out, when Borderlands: Zombie Island DLC comes to the PC.

There is no fist-fighting zombies in L4D2.

The melee weapons are WAY more useless than I expected in L4D2 - and if you ask me, given how tough the game can be (from what I've played on Normal difficulty), it's pretty much essential to have one melee and one gun here.

[MysterD]

You know, I sort of get that feeling playing the demo. I guess it's because I never played that much L4D1 and it's been almost a year. So now I'm trying it out and it feels fresh, and more fun.

Also, I think it has to do w/ the way the game's structured, too.

L4D1's Structure/Format

(click to show/hide)

L4D1 - ALL Four campaign's format was structured like this - 3 levels to try to go from Point A to B on the map (A is the start; B is the exit). Then, there's one big L4D campaign finale level of "defend the level and survive the infinite spawn of enemies for a good amount of time until your rescue shows up." The Crash Course DLC - first level is the A to B; 2nd level is the typical L4D campaign finale level.

L4D2's Structure/Format for Dead Center and Dark Carnival Campaigns

(click to show/hide)

L4D2 switches that up...well, not very much. In Dead Center episode - first 3 levels are to go from Point A to Point B. 4th level in the campaign ends the campaign and is similar in the regard that there's infinite spawns (from the Director) and you have to battle zombies off in this one big area. Though, there's 13 gas cans scattered across the level - and you have get them all, bring it to the stock car, and load the gas into the car - so you can exit the level. So, that new "finale" type was pretty cool to end the episode - as now only did you have to be defensive, you had to also be offensive, as well.

Dark Carnival campaign - first 4 levels are the Point A to B thing. Though, level 5 in this campaign is the same as all the other L4D "finale" levels - hold off infinite spawns off the director in this area until help arrives.

I can't speak on the other 3 Campaigns...yet. I'll update the format of those, once I get there. But, I hope there's like maybe some different types of "finales" or say in a regular level at the end - maybe there's some sort of Ultra-Zombie Boss on something. I dunno, but L4D series needs to mix things up a bit more, if you ask me...

I'm still having a blast w/ L4D2, but it needs a little more variety...

[W7RE]

I think the L4D games need bosses. Yea it can be intense to fight off a shitload of zombies, but it can be more intense to fight some of the special infected. So we already have special infected, which are almost like bosses, and stretch the idea of what a zombie is (Obviously special infected aren't just reanimated dead people. They're mutated.) So why not take it one step further and put a seriously badass boss at the end of a campaign?

[MysterD]

I think the L4D games need bosses. Yea it can be intense to fight off a shitload of zombies, but it can be more intense to fight some of the special infected. So we already have special infected, which are almost like bosses, and stretch the idea of what a zombie is (Obviously special infected aren't just reanimated dead people. They're mutated.) So why not take it one step further and put a seriously badass boss at the end of a campaign?

Sounds good to me. But, I don't think say a serious bad-ass zombie boss should end every single campaign, though - as I think variety would really be the key, if you ask me. Maybe one campaign, bad-ass boss fight. Another campaign - the usual "defend an area until you are rescued L4D finale." I'm probably sure there's other ways they could end a campaign, too . Just, mix it up more, Valve.

[MysterD]

The upcoming L4D2 SDK will ALSO allow for players to new weapons and even modify weapons; create custom special infected; AND their own survivors.

I smell the life of L4D2 being extended majorly here, if this is the case.

[Quemaqua]

Until they make the SDK stop working after a month so they can force you to buy L4D3 for $80.

[MysterD]

Until they make the SDK stop working after a month so they can force you to buy L4D3 for $80.

LMAO!

EDIT:
Que, that might go coincide w/ Valve Time.

Namely, this entry...

Valve Time
Until the problem is fixed with an SDK update    

Actual Time
For the engine after the engine after this (where everything but our tools has changed)

[Quemaqua]

Brilliant!

[MysterD]

Zero Punctuation - Double Review/Editorial here.
He takes on Left 4 Dead 2 and New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

[MysterD]

Left 4 Dead 2: The Passing - Add-On announced.
It'll have BOTH the survivors from L4D1 and L4D2.

There'll be a new area in Georgia (for Campaign, Vs., and Scavenge Modes).
There'll be a new firearm, new melee weapon, new "common uncommon" foe, and a new Co-Op Mode.

Planned for Spring 2010 for PC and X360.

If we go by "Valve Time", I'm guessing we might see it by Winter 2010.

[MysterD]

L4D2 PC - SDK and Add-On Support Tool released.
Have fun, modders!!

Left 4 Dead 2 PC Mod Tools, Support Arrive
by Chris Faylor Dec 24, 2009 3:00pm CST tags: Left 4 Dead 2

On top of knocking 33% off Left 4 Dead 2 PC today, developer Valve has released the tools that allow owners of the zombie shooter to create and play their own content.

The optional "Add-on Support" and "Authoring Tools" downloads are now available to owners via Steam's "Tools" tab, respectively weighing in at 350MB and 20MB. The "Add-on Support" download allows Left 4 Dead 2 to run "ANY map, including custom maps made for the original Left 4 Dead," according to Valve's Yasser Malaika.

To enable custom content creation, both "Add-on Support" and "Authoring Tools" must be downloaded, with Valve offering the following rundown of "the most useful" additions, tweaks and updates made over the original Left 4 Dead's authoring tools:

    Gamemode Logic: Designers can now make a single map that can behave differently depending on the gamemode in which it is being played. This can dramatically reduce the file size of Campaign add-ons, as the same map can be used for Co-op, Versus, Scavenge, and Survival.

    Director Logic: Maps can now alter their layout and behavior depending on how "angry" the A.I. director is. The better the Survivors are doing, the angrier the AI Director seems to get. This allows you to base variable paths and other events on the player's skill and current conditions.

    Scavenge Mode Support! All the elements map authors need to support Scavenge in their maps. This includes game props as well as a full example in the form of Deadline 2, an updated tutorial campaign.

    We have included an updated tutorial to help you get going and as always you can join the discussion on the map designer email list. What we want for New Years is to get to play your custom maps in Left 4 Dead 2. For the best user experience and to take advantage of the new map and nav mesh formats, Left 4 Dead 1 Map Makers will want to compile Left 4 Dead 2 specific versions of their map in the new tool.

[idolminds]

Am I the only one that finds this horrifying?

While we wait for the next major content update for Left 4 Dead 2  to be released, Valve  continues to push out new updates for their zombie co-op shooter via Steam. Today a new patch was made available and while it's mainly bug fixes it does have something interesting; a way for banned players to get a little reprieve.

Folks who Valve banned from playing the multiplayer portion of Left 4 Dead 2 via Valve's own VAC anti-cheat system can now play the game again . . . but that access is limited to the game's single player campaigns. They can also check out the end credits and even Valve's extensive in-game commentary. All in all it's a nice thing to offer people who can't play fair in multiplayer games.

Maybe I'm mistaken but that line seems to indicate that if you got VAC banned in multiplayer that it banned your use of the game entirely. Thats terrible! I thought it was bad enough that a VAC ban in any individual game ended up banning a person from ALL VAC secured multiplayer games. But it can also disable your use of that game in singleplayer? With no returns, no refund, "Thanks for the $50, now you can't play it AT ALL."?

Thats fucking evil.

[MysterD]

Bleh @ that, Idol.

[Quemaqua]

I'm sure you can guess my thoughts already.

[gpw11]

kind of sounds like a glitch though.  From reading that post, I'm more amazed that it bans you across all VAC games.

[Pugnate]

Am I the only one that finds this horrifying?
 Maybe I'm mistaken but that line seems to indicate that if you got VAC banned in multiplayer that it banned your use of the game entirely. Thats terrible! I thought it was bad enough that a VAC ban in any individual game ended up banning a person from ALL VAC secured multiplayer games. But it can also disable your use of that game in singleplayer? With no returns, no refund, "Thanks for the $50, now you can't play it AT ALL."?

Thats fucking evil.

Is it just me, or does it sound like they couldn't ban you for the SP portion even if they wanted to, and are now passing it off as some form of generosity?

[idolminds]

Heh, yeah I noticed that to.