Author Topic: Mandarin is wild  (Read 4144 times)

Offline ren

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Mandarin is wild
« on: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 04:08:48 PM »
I don't think I ever made a post about this. I'm going to Beijing at the end of February four roughly 4 months through an exchange program. I'm trying to learn a little bit of Mandarin before I go so I'm not completely out of it. I figure about 6 months or so should get me comfortable with the absolute basics so I can do basic things like get in cabs, order food, barter, ask for directions and the like. I found a Mandarin tutor on kijiji and had my first lesson today.

It's a really interesting language. The whole tonal concept alone (different tones of the same syllable meaning different words) is so different from english that it's a bit hard to comprehend.

So anybody travelled to a country for an extended time without knowing the language? or tried to learn a radically different language from their native tongue?

Offline idolminds

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #1 on: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 05:48:28 PM »
Que will have much to talk about when he sees this thread. Hes learning Japanese.

Offline scottws

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #2 on: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 08:51:25 PM »
I went to Mexico a few times, but the people I've run into all spoke English well enough to get our points across.

I'm trying to learn Spanish, but progress is slow.  I've been working with these CDs and get some basic conversational Spanish going, but then I stop practicing for 6 mos. and forget everything.  I keep telling Jennie to talk to me only in Spanish, but she usually gets annoyed pretty quickly at me not understanding.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #3 on: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 09:25:43 PM »
Yeah, the best way to learn a language is to have people around you constantly speaking it. You can take every class / cd tutorial you want, but if you are *forced* to learn a language you will do much better.

I know bits and pieces of a few different languages but not enough to get by in the respective countries. I wish I knew more - knowing a foreign language is incredibly valuable, particularly when looking for a job.

Offline ren

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #4 on: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 10:03:56 PM »
Yeah, the best way to learn a language is to have people around you constantly speaking it. You can take every class / cd tutorial you want, but if you are *forced* to learn a language you will do much better.

I know bits and pieces of a few different languages but not enough to get by in the respective countries. I wish I knew more - knowing a foreign language is incredibly valuable, particularly when looking for a job.

That's exactly it. I assume when I get to China I'll pick up quite a bit out of necessity. If I can learn the basics before that, even in a completely rudimentary way, it should make picking it up when I get there that much easier. That and I don't want to be one of those foreigners who just assume everybody knows english and doesn't even put in a little effort to get to know the culture.

With China getting bigger and bigger, learning Mandarin should prove to be a worthwhile pursuit. I'm Indian so I have a decent understanding of some Indian languages though I'm not fluent yet. English + Indian and Chinese languages can't be a bad thing.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 11:43:22 PM »
Learning a new language is never a bad thing.  There are very few I really like as far as the aesthetic elements go, which is why I'm finally trying to learn Japanese.  Frankly, it's the only language other than English that I really like the sounds of.  English will always be my favorite language, and not just because I know it, but for the variety of sounds it produces and for how wonderfully pliable it is; but Japanese is definitely my favorite spoken language other than English.

I really don't care for a lot of Chinese dialects.  I find them too round, bulbous, and monotonous.  However, there are some that are softer and rely more heavily upon the pushing of air, and those can be quite pleasant.  I hate the sound of Spanish with a passion, though it's an extremely easy language to pick up.  I took a little of it when I was younger, but discovered how irritating I found it and stopped.  My sister still really likes it.  She went to Costa Rica for some months when she was younger on a home exchange program.  I like elements of German but dislike others, as with Gaelic.

Chinese and Japanese I think are probably what I consider two of the most beautiful written languages, along with Farsi.  I'm discovering that I really enjoy writing in Japanese.  I know very little as yet, as I've only been on this endeavor for less than a month, but the more I learn to write the kana, the more I like it.  I know very, very few kanji, and most of the ones I've been writing I've been writing with entirely incorrect stroke order (none of my material has gotten me that far, but I'm usually spelling out full kanji/kana spellings of vocabulary words anyway), but it's a joy to write, especially once you begin to recognize the repeating patterns.  Given that kanji are basically Chinese characters adapted for Japanese, I imagine this would be much the same with Chinese as well.

I'm still new to seriously studying a foreign language, especially a Subject-Object-Verb language, but I do feel like the last month has taught me a few things: if you can't immerse yourself by being somewhere, obsess over it a little.  I've been listening almost exclusively to Japanese music lately, and I had pretty meager exposure to it before, so I've discovered a ton of new bands.  I spend most of my time at work listening to them and trying to pick up any words or phrases that I can.  I've also been working out again every night, which usually gives me about enough time to sit through 2 anime episodes, so I've been listening much more closely to the speech and trying to pick out stuff from that too.  Obviously learning from music and cartoons is questionable, as it isn't "real" language in a lot of ways, but it's something easy that helps you to relax and enjoy the sound of the words without actually studying, and since you can do it during times when you're relaxing or doing something else, it helps fill some of those periods where you naturally just sit around thinking in English.  Also, learn some history.  Get a few books on ancient history or modern political history, whatever interests you, and read up on it a bit.  Having a firmer idea of cultural background will usually help you understand the attitude of the language as well.  It's pretty rare that cultural traits don't creep into language to some degree.  You see it all over the place in English, and it's extremely obvious in Japanese in many cases.

Also, come at it from different angles.  Don't pick something and leave it at that.  If you've got a tutor this may be less of a problem for you, but I'm doing this purely on my own, so have little guidance.  Anyway, I'm working out of a standard scholastic textbook for my general course, along with some of the audio stuff it provides (audio is always of pretty limited use, especially if you have no trouble pronouncing words in your chosen language), but I'm supplementing it with a hardcore grammar book that's as dense and impenetrable as you could ask for.  The two work well together.  Thirdly, I'm... er, previewing the Rosetta Stone software to see whether or not there's actually anything to their hype.  I'm not convinced there is.  It does teach, but not nearly so fast as a textbook, and while it can reinforce certain things well, it has a much more difficult time teaching the necessities of grammar in a language as complicated as Japanese.  It does, however, make pretty decent review software, and it's a bit more colorful and lighthearted than a textbook.  Maybe even a bit much for me.  Regardless, I think a good fundamental principle is to come at it from as many angles as you can afford and have the time for.  Almost every book you buy will end up approaching some concepts differently, or give you a little more insight on one particular facet or other, and the things it may approach the same as your other books... no big deal, you're just reinforcing stuff you need to learn anyway.

Anyway, sorry to drone on.  Most of that is probably useless to you anyway as you've already got a background in more than one language.  But that's pretty much what I've been up to lately, to the exclusion of playing games and such.  I'm looking at taking an actual class at some point down the line once I feel more confident with the basics, but we'll see.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #6 on: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 01:30:48 PM »
That's an interesting perspective.  I'm quite the opposite.  I find German to be an extremely ugly-sounding langauge and most of the Asian languages to be too forceful and sudden sounding.  I often joke around with Jennie by saying "Yooouuu will becooommme GEISHA!!!" or "Thank you for calling Grand China, WE ARE CLOSED ON MONDAY!!!"  (the parts in bold are spoken much more loudly and quickly, almost angry sounding)

I don't really have a language preference as far as aesthetics.  Rather I would just like to learn a language that I could get some use out of.  At the moment, Spanish seems to be it because of the influx of Hispanic people and culture into the United States, not to mention Jennie's family is almost entirely Hispanic.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #7 on: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 03:10:10 PM »
Heh, which also has something to do with why I hate it.  I hate the influx of Spanish-speaking people into the US, mostly because I live in California where the entire state is infested with unproductive, non-English-speaking welfare leeches who suck up tons of the available jobs, and these are the idiots who demand that I serve them better every fucking day despite the fact that they contribute nothing (you must remember that I work for the dept. of child support so I am horribly jaded).  One of my best friends as a kid was a Mexican, and the family of one of my only friends at work is pretty much entirely from El Salvador, but I guess the bad apples have spoiled the language for me.  On top of never liking the sound of it, the whole concept infuriates me now.  I still have to sort through junk mail written entirely in Spanish every day.  The bank across the street from mine has more signs and ads in Spanish than it does in English.

But yeah, it's certainly one of the most practical languages to learn, for all that.  You'd get much more daily use out of it, especially with Jennie's family.  And it's always great to be able to speak to some degree in the language of a family you marry into.  I think it's great to make an effort to learn for that reason alone.

Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. can be, as you describe, sometimes rather forceful and staccato (at least depending on dialect).  That's part of the reason I enjoy Japanese so much.  It's rapid, and can be taken to comic extremes (especially if you're watching wacky shit on TV), but the language itself is actually very graceful.  It's one of the few Asian languages I really enjoy listening to.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline ren

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #8 on: Sunday, August 02, 2009, 06:30:53 PM »
The aesthetics of a language is something I've never noticed. For me, a language is a purely functional thing and that's it. I don't quite understand when people are upset when old languages die our or their meanings change. The more people speaking the same language should just make the world easier.

That said, I do enjoy the differences between languages and finding the strengths and weaknesses in them. For example, in Mandarin the verb "to be" is always the same word, there isn't any difference between is or am or are and so on. Also, the 5W's are placed at the end of a sentence instead of at the beginning.

My favourite so far: the word for grandmother and boobies is the same but the tone is slightly different. I'm quite bad with the tones right now so that should lead to some fun mistakes.

What's your method with the cartoons? Are you watching them with subtitles or are you just trying to figure things out?

Although I haven't listened to them yet, I've found quite a few free podcasts teaching Mandarin and I'm sure they're available for Japanese too.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #9 on: Sunday, August 02, 2009, 08:29:57 PM »
The aesthetics of a language to me are nearly more important than everything else.  The functionality of language has very little to do with it, in my eyes.  If it did, we'd all speak just speak the most versatile and useful one.  I can think of nothing more utterly futureless and devoid of purpose than a world in which we all speak the same way.

Podcasts are nice, but their use is fairly limited.  You can listen all you want and still not really learn that much or retain that much.  It depends on what your strengths and weaknesses are.  Audio can be really useful later when you've gotten the hang of grammar and such but still have trouble listening and comprehending quickly enough to follow people in real conversation (lots of people can write a language well, maybe even speak it decently, but have trouble deciphering it in real time).

Cartoons and shows I usually still watch with subtitles because I'm not nearly good enough to do more than pick out random words at this point, and turning them off wouldn't really help me any.  But I still focus a lot on what's being said and try my best to follow the grammar of the sentences (this in particular, especially particle use).  It's often more helpful to have subtitles on for that, because even though localization can sometimes bastardize an original sentence, often the obvious elements stick out with the more basic ones and let you pay more attention to construction.

I've gotten the hang of hiragana now, so I can read a bit.  Got a few of the katakana to go, and then I guess I'll have to start with some basic kanji.  I really wish I had more time.  It's frustrating only being able to put in an hour and a half a day, at best.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Raisa

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Re: Mandarin is wild
« Reply #10 on: Thursday, August 06, 2009, 01:13:57 AM »
a yo!

you chuan

i zhur tzi.

ta shuo she me?

hao la.

ni chur la ma?

ni chur pao?
Taken.