Topic: Randy Pitchford - Update: Randy on Id Software and Crytek (Reply 42)

[MysterD]

Randy Pitchford of Gearbox says that Steam exploits a lot of "small guys" and that Valve having Steam and developing games is a "conflict of interests."

Gearbox's Pitchford: Steam Is 'Exploiting A Lot Of Small Guys'
by Chris Remo
October 7, 2009
 
Gearbox's Pitchford: Steam Is 'Exploiting A Lot Of Small Guys'

Randy Pitchford of Gearbox Software, one of the industry's major independent developers, thinks Valve should spin off its Steam digital distribution service into an independent company, to reduce existing "conflict of interest" issues.

Pitchford, who co-founded Gearbox in 1999, told Maximum PC in an interview that while he "personally trusts Valve," the Seattle-area company is also a development competitor -- and in that capacity, "as a guy in this industry, I don't trust Valve."

"It would be much better if Steam was its own business," the CEO said. "There’s so much conflict of interest there that it’s horrid. It’s actually really, really dangerous for the rest of the industry to allow Valve to win."

In addition to the dangers of a potential monopoly, Pitchford warned that the company is already taking advantage of developers smaller than Gearbox, although he did not provide specific details. "Valve is taking a larger share than it should for the service its providing. It’s exploiting a lot of small guys," he said, adding, "For us big guys, we’re going to sell the units and it will be fine."

Gearbox has a long history with Valve. Its first completed game was the well-received Half-Life: Opposing Force, an expansion pack for Valve's original Half-Life, and it later developed a second expansion, Half-Life: Blue Shift. Gearbox also contributed to several ports of Half-Life to various non-PC platforms.

The company's Brothers In Arms series is also available in full through Steam. And preorders for its upcoming shooter/RPG blend, Borderlands, are currently being sold by Steam as well as by competitors Direct2Drive and GamersGate, but not Impulse.

"I love Valve games, and I do business with the company," Pitchford said. "But, I’m just saying, Steam isn’t the answer."

So, here's the big question -- does anybody know how much of a profit Valve might actually take from a 3rd party game being published over Steam? I'm sure it might differ from deal-to-deal, depending on who Valve deals with here and all -- but anyone got a clue out there of some sort of ballpark percentage?

Also, I wonder how much other companies like Stardock, Gamersgate, and D2D take to have a game published over their digital site / service, as well.

Though, I must say, on the other hand -- would a majority of Indie games really have became what they are today with or without Valve? (Same can probably be said about Impulse, as well). I mean, look at games like Darwinia, Killing Floor, World of Goo, Zeno Clash, etc etc -- a lot of these games didn't get Retail Box versions up for sale at retail stores UNTIL a MUCH later date, after they were already successful on Steam.

Did Mount & Blade get a retail version AFTER its success on Steam? Or before? Or at the same time? I am trying to recall here.

[idolminds]

M&B did well before it was even complete. Any time during its development you could buy it (at a reduced price), download and play it. But it also was in retail before it was on Steam.

[MysterD]

M&B did well before it was even complete. Any time during its development you could buy it (at a reduced price), download and play it. But it also was in retail before it was on Steam.

Thanks for the clarification, Idol.

Best thing about M&B is if you don't want it tied to Steam and you say did buy the Steam version, take your CD-Key that you get from buying the game over Steam; DL the M&B Demo from them directly; and use your CD-Key in there -- and you unlock the full version (removes the time limit)! You won't have to worry about Steam again.

I been lazy, never tried it. But all the time, people always seem to bring it up, in M&B discussions online. I'm gonna have to try it, just for the heck of it.

[idolminds]

You can read what Derek Smart thinks about this! Or not. I'm sure even Gabe Newell was like "Please, don't help us."

Now here we have the dude from Tripwire weighing in. Tripwire of course made Red Orchestra and Killing Floor which both require Steam. So take that into consideration.

Valve has a very unique take on this matter, and one that I think is smart business. Rather than say, "I don't want to sell your game, because it's a competitor to our game," Valve says, "Our game is good, and so is yours, so let's both make some money together." The attitude is if the game is good, they'll sell it.

This is different than standard retail publishers and other digital distribution companies. GamersGate, for instance, refuses to sell games that require Steam because of the conflict of interest. And while they claim to be a better model for digital distribution because GamersGate is a separate business from their related retail publishing company Paradox Interactive, ask Paradox's CEO if they would sell a game at retail that requires Steam.

Ask Valve to sell a game that requires the use of someone elses storefront/client and see what they say. I'm sure they wouldn't be very positive on the idea.

[Quemaqua]

Not to mention it has nothing to do with a game being good or not.  Steam sells plenty of horseshit.  Oh, and it breaks good games made by other people.  Like Tripwire.  I still can't play Killing Floor because Steam fucking broke it and I haven't worked up the desire to uninstall and reinstall it.

[MysterD]

Not to mention it has nothing to do with a game being good or not.  Steam sells plenty of horseshit.  Oh, and it breaks good games made by other people.  Like Tripwire.  I still can't play Killing Floor because Steam fucking broke it and I haven't worked up the desire to uninstall and reinstall it.

 
The game won't even start anymore?
What did Steam or Tripwire do?

EDIT:
RockPaperShotgun.com talks to developer 2D Boy (from World of Goo fame) about dealing w/ Valve and Steam as a digital publisher/distributor.

Next we contacted 2D BOY, who garnered great attention and success almost a year ago with the release of World Of Goo. Ron Carmel told us,

“I know a lot of small developers who distribute their games via Steam and the only complaint I’ve ever heard is that they’re not always very responsive over email. I certainly have not heard anyone saying they feel exploited. My experience has been nothing but positive. Valve’s digital distribution agreement is the simplest and most developer friendly agreement I’ve seen so far, and we’ve signed over a dozen of those. Also, no other digital distribution service I know of, PC or console, pays a higher cut of the revenues out to developers. I think they deserve every penny of the revenue they get. They’ve invested a lot of money and effort building and supporting their distribution platform and every game that gets on it benefits from that investment.”

[Quemaqua]

I know, and they support it so well seeing as it's always fucking broken and message boards for practically every game are chock-full of Steam-specific game problems you don't see anywhere else.  It's pretty awesome.

As for Killing Floor, the install went through but apparently fucked up somehow, so the game has no maps.  So I can play if I go online (and wait for the map to download), but I can't set up a server or play locally, nor do any of the downloaded maps then get added to my game anywhere in terms of local content.

[MysterD]

As for Killing Floor, the install went through but apparently fucked up somehow, so the game has no maps.  So I can play if I go online (and wait for the map to download), but I can't set up a server or play locally, nor do any of the downloaded maps then get added to my game anywhere in terms of local content.

Oh, that's really sucky.
I ain't checked the Steam forums, but is that a common problem w/ Killing Floor? Or Steam in general?

[MysterD]

Pitchford is taking more stabs at Valve.
This time, for them not supporting the PS3.

Gearbox president Randy Pitchford has called out Valve, in a sense, for ignoring PS3 as a development platform.

It’s not very pretty, but here it is anyway.

“I noticed something on the net not too long ago. Doug Lombardi had to take a swipe at the PS3 again, and I thought it was foolish,” Pitchford told OPM. “I read it the same way I read fanboys. Like there’s a guy who bought the Sony platform and he’s a Sony guy, so he decides he’s going to spend a certain percentage of his time bashing Microsoft. And there’s a guy on Microsoft doing the same thing.

“Those guys are childish and narrow minded, it’s the same kind of thing.

“Valve think their own stuff is the only stuff that matters, to the point where they have their own distribution platform. It’s like, I don’t care about retail, about Marketplace, or PSN, I’m going to have Steam.

“It’s cool, it’s good, and they’re doing a good job but at the same time they’re reliant on the rest of the world. They had to do that [Left 4 Dead] deal with EA. When I see the L4D ad on the television I don’t see a Valve logo, I see an EA logo, and when I bought it, I bought it at a store”.

[Quemaqua]

This man would be my hero if his awesome game was slightly better developed for PC.  Still, I love listening to this.  Dude is speaking my language.

[MysterD]

This man would be my hero if his awesome game was slightly better developed for PC.  Still, I love listening to this.  Dude is speaking my language.

If they pump out some PC patches for Borderlands to fix some of the goofy issues (Lilith's best Assassin skill is botched) and put some DLC on disc and all - I'd be mad happy.

[W7RE]

If they pump out some PC patches for Borderlands to fix some of the goofy issues (Lilith's best Assassin skill is botched) and put some DLC on disc and all - I'd be mad happy.

They fixed it on Xbox (and maybe PS3?) already.

[gpw11]

Yeah, I heard that.  Kinda sucks because the PC version really does need some patching, like the stats glitch and whatnot.  Overall though, wicked game.

[Pugnate]

I am not pro Valve or something... but I don't understand some of that.

"I don't care about PSN or Marketplace"? But they are the same as Steam but for console versions...  I mean what makes them better than Steam?

All I personally care about is retail. But if Valve decides that instead of PSN or Marketplace, they want to promote Steam, how does that make them worse than Sony or MS?

[Quemaqua]

I mean what makes them better than Steam?

They work?

[Pugnate]

Yea but that's not the point he is making...?

[Xessive]

I recall a few months back Newell himself said he and the team felt bad for not supporting their PS3 releases properly. PS3 users all over the world appreciated the sentiment.. not.

[idolminds]

I agree with Pug, I'm not entirely sure where he was going with the XBLA and PSN comparison.

He is right that Valve treats the PS3 like crap. My brother picked up Orange Box for PS3 and hes told me about time when the sound cuts out, or echos weird, or theres some graphical bug or something. I know Valve didn't do the port themselves, that EA farmed it out but that doesn't really make the situation any better for people that bought the game. Maybe they should put some effort into making their own port of the Source engine. I mean, once they have it then future ports of games shouldn't be so hard, right? Valve doesn't use any other engine.

[MysterD]

Valve hates on the PlayStation systems b/c Valve don't have Gearbox anymore to do their Playstation ports for them.

See, Gearbox got better shit to do - i.e. Borderlands, Brothers In Arms series, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Duke Begins, and 2 other unknown games.

[Pugnate]

The problem is that the development kit for the PS3 is quite atrocious. Everyone from EA to Rockstar to John Carmack have gone on record with this. Generally, cross platform titles have been slower and buggier on the PS3, and less refined in terms of graphics.

The difference has been that while MS have brought a PC like quality to the development kits of their console, Sony haven't progressed beyond their early days. It also makes it worse that Sony's hardware while definitely more powerful on paper, is like an untamed beast to program for.

When The Orange Box was ported to the PS3, it was imagined to be a simple undertaking, which it ended up not being, and EA UK really ended screwing up.

As well as Valve is doing, it doesn't have the resources nor the skill or experience to do a proper PS3 port. It would have to heavily rework the source engine. I mean, GTA4 was delayed by a year because Rockstar was finding the PS3 to be a real problem.

Valve certainly doesn't have the time... after all, they are busy taking years to bust out small levels for L4D, and making extra content for L4D and then selling it as L4D2... and who can forget their busy schedule of making episodes for Half-life 2.

In all seriousness though, I think Valve is probably going to make sure the next iteration of the source engine is more PS3 friendly.

[MysterD]

Okay, I think this looks right now...

As well as Valve is doing, it doesn't have the resources nor the skill or experience to do a proper PC port.

[Quemaqua]

Haha, that got a laugh out of me.

[Pugnate]

hehe well done D...

[Cobra951]

Maybe, but your post is well thought out and I want to acknowledge it rather than deflect attention from it with a funny.

[MysterD]

Who the hell is Valve to whine about the PS3 architecture when they can't even improve the PC version's Net Code for L4D for an Engine they've been using for years?

[idolminds]

Well, thats another issue.

[MysterD]

Well, thats another issue.

Well, not really - making a half-assed PS3 version of a Valve game would be really no different than a half-assed PC version of a game.

Valve make themselves sound like they're PC and X360 programming experts - when as they've shown, they're far from it.

[idolminds]

Man, Valve really doesn't like the PS3.

[MysterD]

This should be to Gearbox's advantage that Valve doesn't want to support the PS3. That's one less FPS company they got to compete against.

Gearbox should do everything in their power to sell copies of Borderlands to ALL systems - and all their future upcoming games, too.

And from the looks of things, Randy Pitchford should be happy w/ Borderlands getting all kinds of sales and attention. Now, let's keep them patches and DLC coming, Gearbox...

[Quemaqua]

"Right now for Left 4 Dead 2 we're looking at PC and 360 because the community aspects really fit the game - it's all about playing with your friends," he said.

Oh I know, and none of my friends have PS3s.  Except for, you know, just basically all of them at this point.

[Xessive]

I read that too and thought "What's his point exactly?" Are PS3 players solitary cave dwellers?

[MysterD]

I read that too and thought "What's his point exactly?" Are PS3 players solitary cave dwellers?

If Chet doesn't like the PSN as much as XBLive and Steam and give some reasons why, why didn't he just say so?

I mean, really - Chet of Valve just insulted PS3 gamers everywhere.

[Quemaqua]

Plus, what the fuck kind of a name is Chet?  Seriously.

[gpw11]

Wasn't that the name of the obnoxious older brother in some tv show or movie from decades ago?  For some reason a face pops into my mind when I hear that name.

[Pugnate]

Well, twice as many people are on STEAM and XBL than PSN, but all of this is just spin. PSN is still large enough to be lucrative and If Valve could effortlessly port their games to the PS3, they would. Since they can't, they are trying to find an excuse that sounds as legitimate as possible.

The funny thing is that these companies are getting more and more ridiculous with the spin they put on their publicly made excuses, and people are starting to see through the crap.

Take Nvidia for example.

Their next and great video card (which is actually a processor/video card hybrid (code named Fermi) ) has been in a lot of trouble. They were supposed to release it two months ago, but were unable to because of manufacturing problems. The card has now been delayed into next year, while ATi's new DX11 5 series line, which came out a few months ago, has virtually had no competition and has been selling like hotcakes -- which is fantastic for ATi.

When ATi was a few weeks away from the launch of its new card, and people were wondering about Nvidia's response, Nvidia released a press statement that was so silly, that it confirmed all rumors the about Nvidia's Fermi being in massive trouble.

Basically, Nvidia released a statement saying that DX11 was completely useless and gamers were better off keeping their DX10 cards etc etc. Basically it was a statement that countered the 'push the envelope' mission statement of a graphics solution giant like Nvidia.

When the positions were reversed, as they were with DX10 -- when Nvidia had the 8800GTX ready and ATi was struggling with its low yielding parts, Nvidia had been pushing their tech like it was a gift from god.

A few years later, with ATi on top with their DX11 part, Nvidia found itself releasing a press release stating that their tech. was good enough, and that DX11 wasn't a big deal.

But people aren't stupid, and one would think that the best course of action is to keep silent about one's inadequacies rather than issue farcical press releases.

Then again, these companies are huge, with lots of powerful shareholders to please, so one can only imagine the sort of pressure Jen-Hsun Huang was under when ATi hit the mark, and Nvidia was a quarter of a year away from a launch. Typically, whenever a video card company is a month behind, it at least conducts a paper launch, but Nvidia was unable to do even that.

This, you guys will find funny:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3651

I asked two people at NVIDIA why Fermi is late; NVIDIA's VP of Product Marketing, Ujesh Desai and NVIDIA's VP of GPU Engineering, Jonah Alben. Ujesh responded: because designing GPUs this big is "fucking hard".

[W7RE]

Wasn't that the name of the obnoxious older brother in some tv show or movie from decades ago?  For some reason a face pops into my mind when I hear that name.

The older brother in Weird Science, played by Bill Paxton?





Who also gets turned into a pile of shit at the end?

[MysterD]

Who also gets turned into a pile of shit at the end?

That's not Paxton.
That's Gabe Newell! 

[Cobra951]

Well, twice as many people are on STEAM and XBL than PSN, but all of this is just spin. PSN is still large enough to be lucrative and If Valve could effortlessly port their games to the PS3, they would. Since they can't, they are trying to find an excuse that sounds as legitimate as possible.

The funny thing is that these companies are getting more and more ridiculous with the spin they put on their publicly made excuses, and people are starting to see through the crap.

That was my impression as well.  They don't have the expertise to program for the PS3 (and I guess they don't want to pay to hire some) so they found something to say that sounds almost plausible.

That's interesting about Nvidia.  So I guess we need new video cards with every DX iteration?  Was that always the case?

[Quemaqua]

That is interesting, and you do have a point about press releases lately.  The public faces of many companies seem to be opting for clown facepaint rather than ever admitting they have a weak point that could be addressed to better serve their customers.

[MysterD]

That's interesting about Nvidia.  So I guess we need new video cards with every DX iteration?  Was that always the case?

Yep, usually when there's a new OS and/or a new DX version, Nvidia pumps out a brand new model series number.

Most PC games still support DX 9.0 C currently - so, I don't know if you really need to support DX10 or especially DX11 unless you're going to go all outdoors and buy a new PC w/ Win 7 and all the bells and whistles. Or, the only other reason you might need to just say upgrade to a new video card is if your PC's current video card is not being supported much anymore by game designers and you want to upgrade to something good (which your PC can handle).

Not a lot of games support DX10.0 or DX10.1.

We know DIRT 2 will support DX11. NVidia's GF 300 series will support DX11 officially.

I think when more PC gamers and game developers decide to ditch Win XP and adopt Win Vista and more likely especially Win 7, maybe we'll see Win XP and DX 9.0 C support go the way of the dodo.