Topic: Sci-fi writer beaten and arrested at the border.

[Pugnate]

He has apparently worked on Homeworld, Homeworld 2, and was recently working on Crysis 2.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/11/dr-peter-watts-canad.html

While I am holding my judgment etc., I have noticed that law enforcement peeps for some reason ride on massive power trips.

[Quemaqua]

There's always a few bad apples in any bunch, but I wouldn't categorize law enforcement that way in general.  Border cops, though, seem to potentially be a different story.  Really, I think cops in more rural areas in general tend to be more like that, not city cops as much, but for whatever reason border cops just seem to have a greater tendency to be wired wrong.  I don't know if they hire them that way or if the job itself drives them off the deep end.

Either way, who knows.  I hate these stories because the victim always claims to have done absolutely nothing wrong... but who knows if that's true or not.  Just because you're a well-respected author doesn't mean you don't do stupid shit.  Still, something is definitely wrong with some of those guys, and you have to wonder what the hell causes them to act that way (since it's hard to imagine even a mouthy Canadian giving somebody some shit getting them that pissed off).  Even if there was some provocation, it doesn't logically warrant anything that actually went down, which just makes you angry and makes you feel really bad for the guy.  Like somebody said in the comments, law enforcement doctrine is that if you have to use force, you've failed in conflict resolution.  It's not like they're trained to go beat people... so what the fuck is wrong with them?  I mean, I'm the angriest person I know, and I wouldn't want to randomly pull people out of their cars and beat them for no reason.  I'd want to beat them for very specific reasons.  Like being Canadian.

Shit.  Wait, that came out wrong.  Uh...

[Cobra951]

The only way what happened could be justified is if Peter physically attacked an officer, and not surprisingly, that is what he was charged with.  Anything less necessarily implies a complete abuse of power, and I hope justice prevails here, meaning some firings and a huge financial settlement in Peter's favor.

[Pugnate]

Like somebody said in the comments, law enforcement doctrine is that if you have to use force, you've failed in conflict resolution.

Yea I read that comment and nodded in my head.

Someone said the guy has a real sarcastic sense of humor and I am sure he said something. But I can't imagine it was this bad.

[idolminds]

My problem with the article is how one sided it all sounds. Maybe it was a one sided deal, but somehow I doubt it. Not saying the force was justified but there are always two sides to a story and I don't really want to jump and say it was power mongering border police.

[Cobra951]

Sometimes things are exactly as they appear.  How likely is it that this guy got physical with border police?  Does he have a history of mental instability or violence?  Has he ever been arrested before for any senseless acts?  Because justifying the results here would take such a senseless act.

[Pugnate]

What I don't get is why the US border police got involved when he was entering Canada?

[idolminds]

Sometimes things are exactly as they appear.  How likely is it that this guy got physical with border police?

Don't know, never met the guy. 

Does he have a history of mental instability or violence?  Has he ever been arrested before for any senseless acts?

Again, I wouldn't know. 

Because justifying the results here would take such a senseless act.

I caught a fish *this* big. Retelling of stories tend to get blown way up.

From this report:

Jones said Watts was crossing into Michigan from Point Edward when he was selected at random for a secondary Customs inspection. Watts exited his vehicle “angrily” and border officers began checking the black sport utility vehicle he was driving, Jones said.

I don't know if you've seen the authors blog (it was linked to in the original article), but I could believe the guy might get angry. The word "fuck" appears 12 times on the main page of the blog, including the title. Maybe he's not, maybe he was just having a bad day. And I imagine getting picked for a random search doesn't put anyone in a good mood.

But look at it from the patrols perspective. Random search, they do them a lot. Every person is different, and they know nothing about any of them. The kinds of things they are searching for are usually illegal, and the people transporting such goods would be very unhappy about it being found and are likely to do anything. So now we have Mr Grumpy Author behaving in a hostile manner...well, things will escalate quickly.

Border officers ordered Watts back into the vehicle, and when he refused, officers attempted to handcuff him, Jones said. At that point, Watts began to resist and pull away from the officers “and became aggressive toward officers,” Jones said.

Rule #1 with cops: do what they say. If you have a problem with it you can say so and then take it up with the proper channels later, but generally you aren't getting out of doing whatever it is they want right there on the spot. If they tell you to get back in the car, you do it. If you refuse, they are going to put cuffs on you. You might not be under arrest, but they don't want someone that might be upset and refusing to follow directions just hanging around, you know?

This could have stopped if his answer to "Get back in your car" was "Ok." Soon as the cuffs come out its pretty much over for you.

Jones said a border officer used pepper spray to subdue Watts. Jones said Watts “choked” an officer during the struggle.

Yeah, thats usually a trumped up thing. Guy doesnt want cuffs on, gets in a but of a struggle, pushes an officer away or whatever and it goes near the throat...well that turns into "choking". Pepper spray gets pulled on people refusing to comply, which sounds like what this guy did. They stop him for a search, he gets out of the car. They tell him to get back in the car and he refuses (which he totally admits to). Im sure he didn't take kindly to them wanting to cuff him. And it goes on from there.

I'm going way to far with this post. I'm not the worlds biggest cop lover or anything, but sometimes perfectly normal people do stupid shit and then blame it on the cops. You might be right, that this guy did nothing wrong at all and a cop just wanted to punch someone and do a whole lot of paperwork...but that seems unlikely. I guarantee there is more to this than what the author or the cops say.

[Quemaqua]

That's generally the way it goes, which is why I always hate articles like this.  And I wonder exactly what the extent of the "beating" was.  That's another thing that usually gets blown out of proportion.  There is such a thing as excessive use of force, and it's a horrible thing, but any time anyone ever gets taken down by a cop, you can be fucking guaranteed that somebody is going to pull that one out of the hat and try it.  They have nothing to lose by it and everything to gain, which is one of the big reasons I would never be a cop.  A lot of people have it out for them to begin with just because they don't like them, but anyone can make erroneous charges against an officer and due process has to happen, which usually includes him being pulled from duty and held until they can prove him innocent.

But yeah, I mostly hate these articles because like idol said, even if the guys didn't do things entirely right, it's almost never a senseless thing that happened for no reason.  There's almost always a real reason, and it almost always starts with the victim causing the trouble by not complying.

[Cobra951]

Good thing cops aren't regular people who might overreact and do stupid shit themselves.  Even better that they would never cover up such mistakes with trumped-up charges against private citizens.

[Quemaqua]

Nobody ever said anything of the sort.  But you can't immediately place the blame squarely on one party for no reason.  People are people, on either side of the fence, and there are jerks the world over, either in positions of power or otherwise.  That's why the fundamental rule is innocent until proven guilty.

[Cobra951]

But there are no charges against the officers that they need to be presumed innocent of.

Sorry, but this just smacks of abuse no matter how I look at it.  Even if the guy did get angry and mouthy, the physical violence, arrest and felony charges are far from justified.

[Quemaqua]

Well... no matter how you look at it, you weren't there and you don't really know the facts.  We've got second-hand accounts from parties whose interests lie at the heart of the matter to begin with and thus can't be trusted in any capacity.  So our opinions aren't very relevant, are they?

[Cobra951]

If a tree falls in the forest, I believe it made some sort of sound, even if I wasn't there to hear it.  Some conclusions can be drawn without the need to be present.

I find it so unlikely that this guy was treated fairly that I require documented proof that he was, in order to change my mind.  (Maybe there was a video camera somewhere aimed at the proceedings?)  The fact that I wasn't there doesn't mean I can't think for myself about the circumstances.  Being a mouthy asshole is not a felony.  Not yet anyway.

[gpw11]

If a tree falls in the forest, I believe it made some sort of sound, even if I wasn't there to hear it.  Some conclusions can be drawn without the need to be present.

I find it so unlikely that this guy was treated fairly that I require documented proof that he was, in order to change my mind.  (Maybe there was a video camera somewhere aimed at the proceedings?)  The fact that I wasn't there doesn't mean I can't think for myself about the circumstances.  Being a mouthy asshole is not a felony.  Not yet anyway.

If this isn't on camera, you know something is up.  CCTV is fucking everywhere at border crossings.  Beyond that, I seriously doubt that the border patrol officers were completely guiltless here.  Think of the worst cop you've ever seen or heard of.  Now, think about how that guy passed the screening test that every single border guard failed. 

Lots of people in law enforcement type positions are asses.  Not all of them, but a lot of them.  It's not the system's fault, it's that wanting to be in that position of authority is something that naturally attracts poorly adjusted people. Obviously, they try to weed them out, but how stringent can you get, and obviously a lot are going to slip through either way.  Sadly, the further down the line you go, the worse they get.  Street cops are probably going to be bigger jackasses than specialized cops simply because that's why they're still street cops, and the guys who don't even make the cut?  Fuck.

This story is probably pretty one-sided, but I'd be willing to bet all my assets that judged by a jury of EDUCATED peers, with all the information out there and freely available, no one would believe that whatever he did warranted the response.

It's idiocy to assume all law enforcement officials are power tripping jackasses by default, but just as dumb, naive, and infinity more dangerous to just give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Quemaqua]

Exactly.  I don't trust border guards overmuch, make no mistake.  But it's also true that the biggest thing that kept me from pursuing a career in law enforcement when I was younger and in better shape is the fact that being a cop is a completely thankless job where you put your life on the line for people who would probably clap and cheer if they saw you get shot to death.  The work itself turns some of them bad because it's shitty work for lousy pay that earns you more outrage than sympathy 90% of the time, and some are certainly just bad from the start, but it's far more often that you hear people going around calling cops a bunch of arrogant dickheads (often because they don't like the fact that their own regular behavior frequently includes... gasp... illegal activity; even if you wouldn't classify them as criminals) rather than people defending them.  I'm not on either side of the issue, but I believe you either need to be impartial or admit your bias.  Were these guys at fault?  Who knows... maybe, maybe not.  It's certainly quite possible, and if that's the case they need to be punished.

And it does suck that these kinds of situations have to arise.  But let's face it, a lot of times it's the fault of the uncooperative citizenry, and I have absolutely no sympathy for idiots that get themselves into their own troubles.  If this guy did mouth off because his ego told him that was a good idea, I don't have much sympathy for him, either.  Did it warrant a beating?  No, and if that's truly what it was it does seem out of line regardless, but I would guess that it was much closer to the rough treatment you'd get from any cop if you decided you were above the law and didn't need to do what they told you, and not a "beating".  To this guy it might have seemed like that just because he's a pussy, who knows?  When was the last time you met a Canadian sci-fi writer with rippling muscles?  I don't think these guys are immediately wrong simply because someone says so.  I want to see proof that anything bad really happened to begin with before I can really be sympathetic.  Proof is proof.  It isn't logical to cast blame without knowing the facts either way.  The story could be a total hoax for all I know of the situation and people.  Never heard this guy's name prior to this, and even if I did that doesn't mean I know jack about his disposition.  Do we know anything about the cops?  Nope.  The area in question?  Nope.  I'm not suggesting this is a hoax, mind you, but I'm trying to demonstrate that we're so far removed from it, we can't really know what happened or even infer who might be in the right or wrong, and it isn't right to pass judgment as though we can.  Justice needs to be served either way, but getting angry over something we can't understand until actual facts are known is pointless.

[Ghandi]

What I don't get is why the US border police got involved when he was entering Canada?

You can't trust the Canadians. They are crafty bastards and part French. That's a bad combination.