Topic: Final Fantasy XIII (& XIII-2)

[Quemaqua]

We're going to need a thread for it sooner or later, so here it is.  And we'll start with goofy Japanese TV hosts playing it:

KYOUDAI MONSTAA DESU NEE!

[TheOtherBelmont]

Nice video, it was good to see some more gameplay and the battle music that I heard sounded good.  I can't wait until it comes out.

[beo]

hard to tell, but it looks like it's got a character combo move system similar to chrono trigger.

[iPPi]

Opening Cinematic Released

[sirean_syan]

Listen to what we'll get to hear when it comes out in the States:

http://www.giantbomb.com/final-fantasy-xiii-english-voiceover-and-leona-lewis/17-1870/

Sounds pretty terrible to me. The more I see of this game the more I feel I want nothing to do with it. It's Final Fantasy, but it's gone completely too far into the emo/whiny/fake-dramatic direction.

[Xessive]

I'm only really looking forward to Final Fantasy Versus XIII anyway. Possibly Final Fantasy Agito XIII on the PSP as well.

[Cobra951]

Listen to what we'll get to hear when it comes out in the States:

http://www.giantbomb.com/final-fantasy-xiii-english-voiceover-and-leona-lewis/17-1870/

Sounds pretty terrible to me. The more I see of this game the more I feel I want nothing to do with it. It's Final Fantasy, but it's gone completely too far into the emo/whiny/fake-dramatic direction.

I just saw the new trailer over at joystiq.  I was headed to the Fallout 3 thread here, but I saw this along the way.  I've said before that Square should consider releasing FF episodes on video DVD.  FF XII gave me hope that they were heading in a better direction, finally.  Now, though, I'm skeptical once more.  Bluray video seems more appropriate for 95% of what I just saw.

[MysterD]

Short blurb from 1Up on FF XIII evolving as a PS2 game and then becoming a PS3 game - which in fact they believe cost them 1 year and a half delay.

[sirean_syan]

I never saw this come on here, so it must be posted.

Join the cult of Final Fantasy!

[Cobra951]

The battle system is my biggest fear so far (plus excessive FMV always a worry with Square's games).  After XII, I expected real-time combat to evolve, not devolve.  I can't judge from what little I've seen whether this "Paradigm Shift" is a step in the right direction.  It seems like a return to turn-based combat.

[wizall]

I hear what you're saying, Cobra, but I'm actually glad they're heading back to turn-based. I enjoyed FFXII and its combat, but TB feels like home.

Edit: Oh, and yeah, Si, that does look a little cultish. Sign me up.

[W7RE]

According to this entry on Major Nelson's blog, the Final Fantasy XIII Special Edition Bundle will cost $400.

You'll get:
a 250GB Hard Drive
two Wireless Controllers
exclusive downloadable content
Standard Edition copy of the game

It's nice to see the 250GB drive available, but I wish I didn't have to buy a JRPG and controllers I don't need to get it. they're still overcharging for it though. Subtract the $60 game, two $50 controllers, and the DLC (probably $10-15), that makes the HDD $225. No wonder they're only selling it in a bundle, it's to mask the price.

[iPPi]

There are conflicting reports whether or not there will be DLC with FFXIII.

That said, I'm still not sure if I want to buy this game or not.  Reviews have thus far been quite mixed.  It has a good battle system but I hear the plot sucks.

[beo]

w7re, you do realise that bundle includes the console as well, right?

[W7RE]

w7re, you do realise that bundle includes the console as well, right?

ROFL oops. Well think about it, the 120GB drive is $150, which is more than $1 per GB. So $225 doesn't seem too far off. Though $400 is the same price as the MW2 bundle that had a 250GB and two controllers.

Well damnit, I want the drive but not the rest. If I'd had the spare cash I would have totally bought a MW2 bundle and sold my current Xbox.

[beo]

from all the rumours i've heard they're coming out separately very soon. they're already out in japan and all signs are pointing to them replacing the 120gb upgrade kit with a 250gb model in europe - so i'm guessing that NA won't be far behind.

[Cobra951]

Here is an interesting story I read recently at joystiq about the 120GB HDD.  I've also discovered that you can buy third-party 360 replacement shells for 2.5" HDDs, and then use appropriately sized drives in them.  But after Microsoft's dick move against unlicensed memory cards, I'd be very leery of this.

[MysterD]

Square Enix has NO plans for Final Fantasy XIII DLC.

In an age in which downloadable content is often discussed when a game is released (or even before!), Square Enix has stated that it does not have currently have any plans for Final Fantasy XIII DLC.

"Regarding the DLC content, we feel that the final product is 100% enjoyable…it's the complete package," says Final Fantasy XIII producer, Yoshinori Kitase, and director, Motomu Toriyama in a joint statement." So we're not planning any DLC at this time."

No plans. At this time. That doesn't exactly rule out planning for the future, now does it?

"In regard to the rumored cut content, we feel it was taken out of context," the pair continues. "There are a lot of ideas that are brought to the table, and then the team takes the best ideas out of those, and the final product is polished that way." A lot of those ideas were just that: ideas. They didn't make the final cut and are not in the game. According to Square Enix, the team is not looking into releasing this unused content as DLC.

Perhaps Square Enix is not ready to discuss downloadable content, and that's fine. But if there's no DLC, there will be disappointed FFXIII players. These days, DLC is not just expected, but a given.

[Quemaqua]

Fuck Kotaku.  Oh, here's a complete game with no need for DLC!  Let's whine about it because we want to pay more money for things with no value.  You worthless shitbags.  Die in a fire.

[MysterD]

I think it's refreshing to hear what Square Enix has said to say about NO DLC for FFXIII. Kudos to them.

[Xessive]

Ditto, what the H.E. Double Hockey Sticks are these people bitching about??!

[iPPi]

Actually, I think they are just clarifying the conflicting reports that there was going to be DLC.  I remember very clearly reading that Square Enix was at one point considering DLC not more than a few weeks ago.  Hell, even that special edition Xbox360 bundle says there's exclusive 'downloadable content'.  This new report clears it up.

[Cobra951]

During a recent interview with Xbox World 360 magazine (via CVG), Toriyama explained, "we think many reviewers are looking at Final Fantasy XIII from a western point of view." He later added, "when you look at most Western RPGs, they just dump you in a big open world, and let you do whatever you like... it becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom."

joystiq

Can't let player freedom get in the way of telling a long story, can we?  No, players must be led by the nose.

Pass.

[Pugnate]

Fuck Kotaku.  Oh, here's a complete game with no need for DLC!  Let's whine about it because we want to pay more money for things with no value.  You worthless shitbags.  Die in a fire.

Thank you. I fucking hate Kotaku. Not because they are terrible, but because their popularity will lead a whole generation of gamers to believe that their standards are what define good journalism.

joystiq

Can't let player freedom get in the way of telling a long story, can we?  No, players must be led by the nose.

Pass.

While I am the last person to defend a Japanese RPG (I would never play a Jap. "RPG" over one from a western developer), I do agree with him to a certain degree. The lesser the freedom, the more controlled the narrative. It doesn't mean you can't tell a great story in an open ended RPG, but it just means you have to put a lot more effort into it.... or you end up with Oblivion.

All he says is that it becomes more difficult, and that's true. Either you as a studio can put all of your effort into a linear path, and come up with a game as artistically and cinematically rich as Final Fantasy (I don't like the games, but I can't deny their strengths), or you can put an equal effort into making equally rich multiple paths. Of course, that requires a lot more resources, and hence the difficulty of such an endeavor.

Even Bioware games, which offer many well developed and rich paths in a single game, aren't completely perfect. In games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 (as awesome as they are), I still came across portions which I found were obviously curtailed, or where things played out a certain way more for the sake of budgetary concerns than artistic merits.

When you offer players a lot more freedom, you end up with a lot more variables to design for, and a lot of loose ends to tie towards the end. It is why the companions that may or may not have died in Mass Effect 1, ended up as non recruitable in the sequel, and only with a few lines of dialog that were almost completely out of character, and simply created to write those characters out of the universe.

[Cobra951]

While I am the last person to defend a Japanese RPG (I would never play a Jap. "RPG" over one from a western developer), I do agree with him to a certain degree. The lesser the freedom, the more controlled the narrative. It doesn't mean you can't tell a great story in an open ended RPG, but it just means you have to put a lot more effort into it.... or you end up with Oblivion.

Or with Fallout 3, one of the best games I've ever played.  No, it isn't perfect, but I would much rather put up with those imperfections than with a straitjacket.  This is a long debate, whether story or freedom is more important.  I always side with the latter.  What ticked me off the most about what I quoted was the smug "we know better" attitude.  "It's my game, not the player's".  Yeah, and it's my money, and I'm not spending it here.  You want to recite me a story while I listen attentively, put it in a book or a movie.  What happens in a game better be much more up to me than that.

[W7RE]

I actually got a very Final Fantasy feel from Mass Effect 2's structure, despite the multiple paths. You get some story taht gives you an objective, you head there and do it, get some more story/cutscenes. Maybe it was the way it held my attention like FF games used to, but it felt like a similar game structure, but without the emo anime manboy main character. After ME2 I don't think I can play any more JRPGs because it makes them all feel like a tired and dated setup.

[iPPi]

I preordered it today.  To be honest I have no idea if I'm going to like it or not but it's the next big game release and it seems like it will be a good time sink.  I'll wait and see how the western audience reviews are and decide whether or not to cancel the preorder or not.

[W7RE]

but it's the next big game release

BFBC2 is out a week before :p

[Pugnate]

Or with Fallout 3, one of the best games I've ever played.  No, it isn't perfect, but I would much rather put up with those imperfections than with a straitjacket.  This is a long debate, whether story or freedom is more important.  I always side with the latter.  What ticked me off the most about what I quoted was the smug "we know better" attitude.  "It's my game, not the player's".  Yeah, and it's my money, and I'm not spending it here.  You want to recite me a story while I listen attentively, put it in a book or a movie.  What happens in a game better be much more up to me than that.

From what I understand Fallout 3 is a better game than Oblivion. It seems to have less freedom, but at the same time the optional stuff is better written.

Anyway you might find this interesting:

http://kotaku.com/5475175/alan-wake-used-to-be-an-open+world-game

Regarding the long debate, it isn't really one, at least in my eyes, because I don't see one as better than the other. I think they are equally important, but I obviously prefer western RPGs to JRPGs. I would rather there be an open world, but with more focused gameplay. So much of the content in Oblivion was undercooked... yes I put a 100 hours into the game, but still.

I think this is why I loved games like Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate II so much. Both the games (the the latter a lot more so than the former) were pretty damn huge, but there was so much attention to detail.

Regarding the smug attitude, you may remember this from Bioware:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10419828-17.html

In recent years, the U.S. role-playing game landscape has become decidedly dominated by Western-based games, like Mass Effect 2 and the recently released Dragon Age: Origins. But according to Greg Zeschuk, co-founder of role-playing game company BioWare, Japanese developers might have only themselves to blame.

Speaking in an interview with Destructoid, Zeschuk said "the fall of the Japanese RPG (JRPG) in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression." Zeschuk added that developers "kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."

But Zeschuk wasn't done. He said the same methods used years ago to advance a story are still being employed in today's Japanese RPGs.

"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think--you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."

As someone who absolutely loves role-playing games, that's a tough pill to swallow. I can still remember the good ol' days playing Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete to its completion in an almost nonstop gaming session.

At the same time, Zeschuk makes a point. RPGs are not what they used to be. They have evolved. And so far, the vast majority of Japanese-based RPGs that I've played recently reflect that same, old-school feeling. It's not always a bad thing, of course, but for the broader U.S. audience, if Zeschuk can be believed, it's starting to hurt sales.

But yea I do agree with you.

What angered me somewhat was when some prominent Japanese developer said after the release of Bioshock that western developers were finally getting better than the Japanese ones.

That ticked me off, becaue he proceeded to name games which had already been franchises on the PC.

I just wanted to shake him and say, no you idiot, they've always been better... you just didn't bother playing the games.

[Pugnate]

I preordered it today.  To be honest I have no idea if I'm going to like it or not but it's the next big game release and it seems like it will be a good time sink.  I'll wait and see how the western audience reviews are and decide whether or not to cancel the preorder or not.

haha I preordered it as well. The only FF game I played was FF8 and I got into it until the bugs just became intolerable. Plus the interface was like it came out of a monkey's butt.

Anyway I have the PS3 so I felt I had to preorder it. I will try my best to like it.

[iPPi]

haha I preordered it as well. The only FF game I played was FF8 and I got into it until the bugs just became intolerable. Plus the interface was like it came out of a monkey's butt.

Anyway I have the PS3 so I felt I had to preorder it. I will try my best to like it.

Hehe, my track record with FF games is pretty bad as well.  I played FF8 on the PC and grew tired of the game by the end of the third disc and I never finished it.  I've started FF7 on the PS3 and am about 8 hours into it but I haven't played it recently.  Hopefully I will have more luck with FFXIII.

[PyroMenace]

Let's see I have played and beaten FF3, FF7, and FF10. I got to the very end of FF8 but never finished it since like iPPi mentions, it does get boring. I also played a chunk of FF6, I liked it but stopped playing it. I have FF12 and gotten a little ways into it, its a great game, just one of those I got distracted off of. Awesome part about all this however is that FF games are self-contained separate stories from each other. So you can start anywhere!

[W7RE]

I finished FF1, most of Mystic Quest, most of 5, all of 6, 7, 8, and 9. After that I just lost interest. Somewhere around the time FFX came out I realized it was the same design over and over, and I no longer was interested in the anime style and the androgynous characters. It was also around that time that I discovered some old Amano art of characters from FF6, and I couldn't tell the men from the women. It's a weird Japanese cultural thing that makes no sense to me as a Westerner. I just find it unappealing.

I was listening to the Bombcast today and they were talking about the "feel" of Japanese games, in relation to Dead Rising 2 and Lost Planet 2. They said Dead Rising has a very deliberate way of letting the animations play out fully when you attack something, which makes you lose control of your character in a dangerous way, because you can get attacked while stuck in a longer animation. It's a sacrifice of gameplay for visuals. They then talked about how Lost Planet, while cool, controlled really strangely because of the way the characters moved, which made it feel distinctly like a Japanese game. They went on to talk about how including Gears characters seems like a bad idea, since it will just remind people that there's a similar 3rd person shooter out there that controls way better, and you could be playing that instead.

All of this combined is why I just avoid Japanese games in general these days. I assume if something's from a Japanese developer it will have one or more of the following:
-annoyingly anime characters
-squeaky japanese voices or really bad english voices
-poor gameplay/controls
-over the top flashy graphics that obscure what's going on
-androgynous teenage male characters
-wardrobes that look like something from a bad fashion show

I just feel like Japanese developers don't get it anymore. Like they're out of touch somehow. I guess it's just me moving on and realizing that the quirky Japanese stuff that defined gaming for so long, is part of their culture, and to me it's just fucking weird now.

[Pugnate]

Poor controls, and a prehistoric interface and presentation is what makes Japanese games so nauseating to me. It is why for the longest time I found console gaming in general so laughable.

What I don't understand is this inability to grow. Cobra is right.. it is an arrogant attitude.

Games like Resident Evil and Silent Hill are ridiculous to me.

Let's make a broken and limited interface, with nonsensical controls and camera movement... and call it part of the atmosphere.

I think a lot of this has to be Stockholm Syndrome or something... it is the only way I can explain the minority not bothered by this anymore.

Look, it was fine 15 years ago, when technology was limited and those style of games were still young. But any of those Resident Evil/Silent Hill games released in the past ten years that have those issues don't have an excuse.

[W7RE]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the arrogance that drives most of the stagnation. I've been led to believe that the Japanese are a very arrogant people. who at one time held the belief that they were the "master race", which even resulted in not letting outsiders even into port for trade. With this type of mindset being passed down through the generations, you could easily see why they don't want to follow trends of westerners in an industry that the likes of Nintendo and Sony (Japanese companies) built throughout the 80s and 90s. That's why the Xbox and Xbox 360 seld (and still sell) laughably in Japan. It's not because of lack of the right games or marketing. It's because Japanese people are racist against anyone not Japanese.

[PyroMenace]

Fucking hell, what did this thread turn into?

[Cobra951]

From what I understand Fallout 3 is a better game than Oblivion. It seems to have less freedom, but at the same time the optional stuff is better written.

Anyway you might find this interesting:

http://kotaku.com/5475175/alan-wake-used-to-be-an-open+world-game

Regarding the long debate, it isn't really one, at least in my eyes, because I don't see one as better than the other. I think they are equally important, but I obviously prefer western RPGs to JRPGs. I would rather there be an open world, but with more focused gameplay. So much of the content in Oblivion was undercooked... yes I put a 100 hours into the game, but still.

I think this is why I loved games like Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate II so much. Both the games (the the latter a lot more so than the former) were pretty damn huge, but there was so much attention to detail.

Regarding the smug attitude, you may remember this from Bioware:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10419828-17.html

But yea I do agree with you.

What angered me somewhat was when some prominent Japanese developer said after the release of Bioshock that western developers were finally getting better than the Japanese ones.

That ticked me off, becaue he proceeded to name games which had already been franchises on the PC.

I just wanted to shake him and say, no you idiot, they've always been better... you just didn't bother playing the games.

I've sunk hundreds of hours into both games, and both offer the same degree of freedom.  The exceptions are rare, with certain sequences you have to get through once you start in FO3.  The vast majority of the time, you can be working on multiple quests at your leisure, dropping one to go do something else that suddenly strikes your fancy (and then return to the quest later).  Broken Steel addressed the issue of the game coming to a grinding halt after the main quest line is completed.  The world now continues indefinitely.  The story is rich and compelling, but you are not wrenched out of the game world and tied to a TV chair to learn it.  You pick it up by learning it through your own exploration and NPC interactions.  More importantly, you determine the story through your actions.  There are multiple possibilities, at least 2 per individual turning point.  You are never forced to do anything.  It's all up to you, including who lives and who dies.  You are the master of your destiny, within the limitations of what exists before you.

After that experience, reading what I quoted about FF XIII flatly pissed me off.  That guy is so far up his own ass that he can't see what's what.  Fuck him and his game.

Everything you said, and that quote are spot-on.  Great post, Pug.

[Pugnate]

I know there is definitely a lot of nationalism in Japan, but I think the consumer mindset is entirely different, and it isn't a case of racism. Just look at their culture, and the sort of games they play... those type of games are definitely a rarity on the Xbox.

[MysterD]

Square Enix is saying FFXIII is NOT a RPG.

 

[Pugnate]

Finally, they admit it.