Topic: Final Fantasy XIII (& XIII-2)

[Cobra951]

With FFXIII, we've first and foremost pursued a gameplay style in which different situations and dramatic occurrences will be presented to players one after the other."

In other words, FFXIII has taken yet another step closer to becoming the "interactive movie" detractors have waggishly derided the series as being ever since 1997's dazzlingly cinematic Final Fantasy VII -- and the creators are perfectly happy with that step.

More suited to Netflix than a console.  Great.

Edit:  Wait.  There's more.

Kitase and Toriyama are determined to give gamers a lush, cinematic experience, and to that end they've severely limited player freedom to minimize the possibility that you might encounter a blemish.

Silly players, wanting to decide what to do.

[PyroMenace]

Ugh this is ridiculous. Its a fucking FF game, not a goddamn Bethesda game. Have a fucking clue.

[Pugnate]

hahahahah...

I don't know why that made me laugh.

[Cobra951]

Ha!  Yeah, I got a chuckle too.

The point I've been pushing can very much be summed up as Bethesda vs Squaresoft game design.  I don't know if Pyro aimed his comment at me or the linked article.  I find the criticism valid, particularly because the dev is confirming it with a straight face.  I've never liked games that lead me by the nose and sacrifice player freedom for a story better served by a miniseries.  I have played all or part of several games in the FF series too, starting with VI, and later backtracking to a fan translation of V.  But it's what happened with VII and beyond that gets so troubling.  I thought they had grown past that with XII, but now it seems they consider XII to be a step in the wrong direction.  What a pity.

[Pugnate]

I definitely think there is a space for both type of games. The linear RPGs bring tighter narrative, while the more open RPGs offer a greater sense of freedom.

My issue isn't with the style of Final Fantasy, but with the lack of growth in other areas like the interface and overall presentation. Little seems to have changed from what I have seen. I think that FF can show plenty of growth without compromising its very linear style.

Anyway, I am definitely going to be buying this one and hope to finish it.

[PyroMenace]

Whew, I was a bit irritated last night and comment just came out, glad I didn't piss anyone off, haha.

Anyway, my point really is that I have no problems with FF games, there game design may be different, but I don't think its bad. Triple A games are falling in this action/adventure FPS/Third person only domain, even RPGs are molding to that genre. Even some ways it looks like FFXIII is growing more into that, but how often to FF games get released, every 4 or 5 years? Certainly there's room on the table for FF's game design. We should like, even demand more variety in these big titles. If your not into it, there's certainly plenty more around of what your used to.

[Cobra951]

My irritation comes from the grand expectations I had for XIII after having such a great experience with XII.  That one was heavy with story too, but it felt so open most of the time, and featured in-world real-time* combat.  Those expectations got dashed to the ground hard.  Yeah, I know I have other choices.  I really wanted XIII to be among them, one of the best.  Not to be; not for me.

* (Yes, I know dice were being rolled behind the scenes.  It still felt very immersive, in real time.  Tactical footwork while recharging powers was truly real-time anyway.)

[gpw11]

My irritation comes from the grand expectations I had for XIII after having such a great experience with XII.  That one was heavy with story too, but it felt so open most of the time, and featured in-world real-time* combat.  Those expectations got dashed to the ground hard.  Yeah, I know I have other choices.  I really wanted XIII to be among them, one of the best.  Not to be; not for me.

* (Yes, I know dice were being rolled behind the scenes.  It still felt very immersive, in real time.  Tactical footwork while recharging powers was truly real-time anyway.)

Fuck, you're making me want to play it again.

[Quemaqua]

As a huge fan of XII, I can definitely understand that frustration.  I don't really know what to think of all this.  I'll just wait for it to come out and for someone else to play it and let me know what it's really like in the end.

[iPPi]

I simply don't understand why there's so much hate for this game.  There's like this preconception that if it isn't an open world game or if it doesn't follow the traditional formula than this game will be absolute garbage.  

[PyroMenace]

My irritation comes from the grand expectations I had for XIII after having such a great experience with XII.  That one was heavy with story too, but it felt so open most of the time, and featured in-world real-time* combat.  Those expectations got dashed to the ground hard.  Yeah, I know I have other choices.  I really wanted XIII to be among them, one of the best.  Not to be; not for me.

* (Yes, I know dice were being rolled behind the scenes.  It still felt very immersive, in real time.  Tactical footwork while recharging powers was truly real-time anyway.)

Which proves my point, I dont want an FF game to go more in that direction. I don't want real time combat or open world, I've already played dozens of games that do that. The points that have been raised here was how big headed easterners are with their games, but we're sitting here expecting they conformed to a more western gaming market, why should they? I think Square is one of the rare few that still manages to bring appeal to Japanese games, its what makes them what they are. Besides if you want open world FF then go play the MMO, which I was against them doing in the first place. You complain about long cutscene sequences, but for some reason you didn't mind reading long periods of text boxes in pre PS2 era FFs.

[beo]

I'm in agreement with pyro. this is what final fantasy is to me:

• cinematic style
• great story
• turn based combat

when you broaden the scope of a game, you are in danger of diluting certain aspects of it. ff games are what they are and massively succesful because of it.

[Cobra951]

OK, fair enough.  Different expectations will lead to polar-opposite assessments of the game.  If you want a return to the more linear and turn-based earlier games, then you will be a lot more pleased than I will.

[beo]

yeah, probably - especially given that i didn't really like ffxii all that much. i thought the dynamic battle system sucked. hard. once you got to a certain point in the game, 90%+ of all fights played automatically. also, i felt the usual focus on story was missing - it didn't feel as dramatic as it's predecessors, i felt like a cog in a political machine i didn't really care about, rather than a main player. by the end of the game, i really didn't give a shit what happened. the only thing i preferred about it was the free roaming - but i'd happily sacrifice that in favour of everything else that i enjoyed so much from the previous iterations.

[Xessive]

Gamespot's Import Friendly had some good coverage on the FFXIII (as well as Valkyria Chronicles 2 on PSP near the end).

[Pugnate]

Congrats Playstation... for once you have the superior product:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-final-fantasy-xiii-face-off

Good thing I was getting this on the PS3 anyway.

Very rarely are you asked to return to previous locations - with just one chapter in the game dedicated to the sort of free-roaming JPRG gameplay for which Final Fantasy is renowned.

Strange...  I had no idea they made things that much more linear. Anyway, I am getting a little excited for this game.

I haven't actually touched my Jasper 360 since they day I bought it after my old one died.

However, experienced eyes out there know a legit shot when they see one, and soon the Xbox 360 version was being reported as 1024x576, with 2x multi-sampling anti-aliasing. This is up against native 720p on the original PlayStation 3 version, again with the same 2x level of MSAA, representing a fairly enormous drop of around a third of the overall resolution. So, are the stories about a reduced resolution on FFXIII 360 true? You betcha.

.


edit:

The difference is more striking when you are looking at these images on a full page rather than the downsized versions on OW.

[Pugnate]

Despite the cutbacks, the in-game graphics are still attractive, the gameplay is fundamentally the same as the PS3 version and it's clearly a cut-above much of the other JPRG fare available on the console. That being the case, despite falling short in direct comparison with its PS3 sibling it's still a decent game, though I daresay that the retooling of the formula into a more linear experience with obvious cutbacks in the exploration element is likely to frustrate many of the core fanbase.

[beo]

eh, the resolution drop and compressed movies bothers me a little, but nowhere near enough to buy a new console.

i'm still anticipating this game a great deal, but based on some of the reviews, i'm also anticipating being slightly dissapointed. it is one of those games where i really need to play for myself though.

[Pugnate]

There are some videos on that website, and it looks incredible regardless of the console. I definitely agree that the differences aren't enough to buy a new console of course.

Yea it is disappointing that they've cut back on the exploration portions of the game, but final fantasy is now seemingly one of a kind. I mean in the past you had games like Skies of Arcadia, Grandia etc., but those days seem to be over.

[Cobra951]

That being the case, despite falling short in direct comparison with its PS3 sibling it's still a decent game, though I daresay that the retooling of the formula into a more linear experience with obvious cutbacks in the exploration element is likely to frustrate many of the core fanbase.

That's the deficiency which will keep me away, not the graphics.  It can't be cured by buying a PS3 either.

[Pugnate]

Final Fantasy 13 reviews rolling in:

http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/final_fantasy_xiii/review.html

After 20 hours, Final Fantasy XIII granted me permission to decide for myself which three playable characters should be in my party. After 25 hours, Final Fantasy XIII granted me permission to decide for myself how I should develop the characters in my party. After 30 hours, Final Fantasy XIII decided to let go of my hand, but then thought better of it and grabbed hold of it again. Welcome to the evolution of the Japanese role-playing game.

Yikes.

Well, it's true: FFXIII is linear. So linear, in fact, that for the first ten chapters - approximately 20 hours of gameplay - FFXIII feels more like a dungeon crawler than an epic, expansive JRPG. There are no side-quests to add variety. There are no towns or villages to visit. There is no over world to explore. You move forward, fight, fight, and fight, then sit back and watch a cutscene, then do it all again, pushing ever forward, never deviating from the straight and narrow path upon which you must tread. At the end of a chapter, there's a boss fight, which is usually a pretty horrendous difficulty spike, then, a cutscene, and the next part of the tunnel. The Final Fantasy series, and indeed the JRPG genre, has always been a somewhat linear experience, punctuated by turn-based combat and beautiful CGI cutscenes, and driven by melodramatic narrative. But FFXIII is so linear that it feels like you're adventuring through one long, dark tunnel, and there's no light at the end of it to give you hope that at some point your journey will change course.

Huh? No towns? No areas to openly explore?

I've played a good chunk of FF8 and watched my friends play through tons of other FF games, and this just doesn't sound like Final Fantasy.

It's a deliberate design decision on producer Yoshinori Kitase and co's part, of course - an effort to lend the game what director Momotu Toriyama calls an "FPS style vibe". He's obviously been playing the scripted Modern Warfare series and taken notes. But the team's gone too far in its efforts to evolve the tried and trusted - some say tired - Final Fantasy formula. The result is a sanitised, uninspiring, monotonous trudge through admittedly fabulous-looking surroundings. It's as if you are being driven to the end of the game as you sleep in the back seat.

Other design decisions only serve to exacerbate the feeling that you're never truly in control of what's happening. The game dictates who is on the front line of your party - i.e., who fights in battles - for the first 20 hours of the game

Now, you may wish to sit down for what's coming next: you only ever control one character during combat. We know, madness, huh? What has Square Enix done? Why have you dumbed down FF for the casual noobs! Calm down, dear. It's actually really good. Yes, you only control one character at once, but, with the Paradigm Shift function, you indirectly control everyone, and the AI is really, really good.

FFXIII's combat system is the best the series has seen. It's exciting to watch, fun to use, and, most importantly, brimming with strategy and depth

Story is, of course, massively important for Final Fantasy fans. The great news is that in this regard you won't be disappointed

And then of course, there are the graphics. FFXIII - the first HD FF game - looks fantastic. The in-game character models are superb. Lightning's hair blows in the wind, Snow's jacket ripples realistically as he dishes out his unique blend of knuckle sandwich, and Sazh's afro… well, it wobbles about like jelly, which isn't realistic at all, but from a distance it looks great. Some of the environments look stunning, too.

And then of course, there are the graphics. FFXIII - the first HD FF game - looks fantastic. The in-game character models are superb. Lightning's hair blows in the wind, Snow's jacket ripples realistically as he dishes out his unique blend of knuckle sandwich, and Sazh's afro… well, it wobbles about like jelly, which isn't realistic at all, but from a distance it looks great. Some of the environments look stunning, too.

But the CGI cutscenes will no doubt steal the show. They are, quite simply, the best ever; to our eyes as good as the Final Fantasy CGI movies. There are loads of cutscenes in FFXIII, but they are not, in isolation, offensively long, as they are in MGS4. They are bite-sized chunks of animated brilliance, and demand to be watched over and over again. But the more impressive feat is how good the "in between cutscenes" look. These cutscenes - not CGI but not in-game - look fantastic, and sometimes fool you into thinking you're watching CGI. There can be no doubt that FFXIII is a graphical feast worthy of anyone's high definition television.

Despite the superb battle system, engaging cutscenes, and interesting characters, FFXIII, ultimately, is a disappointment. Taken in isolation, it is a fun game with stunning graphics and a compelling story. But compared with the wider RPG genre, and held up against the lofty expectations of the series' hardcore fans, it falls short. For this reason, newcomers may well enjoy FFXIII more than series' veterans.

That's good news for me I guess?

You just can't escape the feeling that, in trimming the fat from the series, Square Enix has nicked FFXIII's bone. It's not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination; like a good song, or a slow-burning book, FFXIII grows on you the more you play it. It is, undoubtedly, the best JRPG to come out of Square Enix in a long time. But the inescapable, uncomfortable truth is that it is too linear. Without traditional JRPG features like towns, NPCs, and an over world, there is no real sense of ownership. Upon completing the game, you certainly feel as if you've enjoyed the 50 or so hours you've invested into doing so, but the experience is more throwaway than formative. Despite some incredibly tough monster hunting missions in chapter 11, there's no variation to the game whatsoever.

FFXIII spends too long easing players into its complex systems - complex systems which, really, aren't that complex. In a recent interview, Kitase said: "It's better to see some people be a little bit bored" than give players too much information to digest. We had no idea he was talking about 25 hours of boredom. Toriyama recently said that lower than expected review scores are the result of press reviewing "from a western point of view", as if to say we're missing the point. But surely, in today's global village and instant communication age, taking a global perspective on a high profile internationally-released video game is the only proper course of action.

As Western role-playing games have evolved, delving into open world, player-driven territory (Elder Scrolls, Fallout) and cinematic, cross-genre experiences (Mass Effect, Borderlands), Japanese role-playing games have remained largely the same - stuck in a rut, even - telling tales of teenage angst and upbeat heroic fantasy we've heard countless times before. We're not saying we wanted Final Fantasy to copy WRPG mechanics. We simply wanted - quite desperately - for Final Fantasy XIII to be the best JRPG of all time. You have to hand it to Square Enix for trying to move things forward - better that than yet another rehash of the tried and tested Final Fantasy formula (the less said about Infinite Undiscovery the better). But it does so along a path so narrow and straight that you long for the days of old. When Vanille is knocked out in battle, she sometimes says: "What went wrong?" It's a question we find ourselves wondering as well.

I've never been to videogamer.com but that review was really well written, and constructed. Having said that, I will still get this game the day it is released and form my own opinion.

[Pugnate]

Gamespot gives it an 8.5:

There are some elements that keep Final Fantasy XIII from being everything it could have been. Even so, it is still a legitimately great game for its stunning beauty, fantastic story, and enjoyable battles, which means it has a lot in common with the Final Fantasy games that came before it. The stubborn gal in the blue sari, the steely blue-eyed star, and even the apprehensive, spiky-haired adolescent are easy to root for, and their journey is as memorable as any other in the series. Even if the gameplay doesn't reach those same heights, almost any RPG lover can still get lost in Final Fantasy XIII.

The good news is he likes it. The bad news is that it is Kevin Van0rd.

1UP gives it an  A- :

Like Mass Effect 2, FFXIII seems to be an attempt to answer the question of how to create an RPG for the modern, console-owning masses. Square Enix's solution is certainly different than BioWare's, but it's arguably just as effective in its own way. I can't say that this is the direction I want the genre as a whole to go -- or even the Final Fantasy series, for that matter -- but Square should be commended for embarking on an interesting journey down a daring road when so many of their competitors are content to stand, directionless, back at the crossroads.

Doesn't sound like he is completely convinced, which is strange when he gives it an A-.

Gameinformer gives it a 9.25:

A good story is of paramount importance in a role-playing game, but the fact that FF XIII’s other elements compensate for its disappointing narrative is a testament to the overall quality of the experience. For years, gamers have had visions of this title as an industry-transforming epiphany, but no game could possibly live up to such astronomical expectations. That’s no reason to lose faith; though reality doesn’t match the myth, Final Fantasy XIII is a phenomenal RPG destined to be remembered as a technical milestone for the series.

Eurogamer gives it an 8.0:

Still, Final Fantasy XIII's is a superb system overall, easily making up what depth it has lost in speed, tactical cunning and moment-to-moment engagement. Some have bemoaned the apparent retreat from XII's daring reinvention - I did myself, at first - but in its way XIII is just as big a step for the party RPG, albeit a simpler and perhaps more palatable one.

Palatable is very much the word for Final Fantasy XIII. The Final Fantasy series, with its lengthy cinematics, stubborn style and carefully prescribed limitations, can never hope to please everyone. So it's strange to see it try, and no surprise that the result is not a total success. It's cautious, narrow, far too slow to get going, and is stripped down to such a bare naked form that even some FF traditionalists might find it off-putting.

What's left, though, is faultlessly accomplished, gorgeous to behold and, in the long run, thoroughly enjoyable. For better or worse, it's another new beginning, and that's one Final Fantasy tradition that should never be changed.

[Cobra951]

FFXIII spends too long easing players into its complex systems - complex systems which, really, aren't that complex. In a recent interview, Kitase said: "It's better to see some people be a little bit bored" than give players too much information to digest. We had no idea he was talking about 25 hours of boredom. Toriyama recently said that lower than expected review scores are the result of press reviewing "from a western point of view", as if to say we're missing the point. But surely, in today's global village and instant communication age, taking a global perspective on a high profile internationally-released video game is the only proper course of action.

That paragraph really stood out for me.  It seems to nail the issue squarely (oooh . . . sorry).

[iPPi]

Either way I'm still interested, regardless of its linearity.  Hell, Heavy Rain is completely linear and it's still a blast.  Whether a game is linear or not should not be a deterrent.  I think what's getting people is because it's a departure from the traditional Final Fantasy game.  I guess I'm not ingrained on their previous games at all so I have no problem with a change in design philosophy.

[PyroMenace]

Toriyama recently said that lower than expected review scores are the result of press reviewing "from a western point of view", as if to say we're missing the point.

That sounds rather contradicting since they were trying to cater to a western audience in the first place.

[PyroMenace]

I have to say, after reading some reviews, this game really shows how broken gaming journalists are. I mean this is just bad. The reviewers aren't giving scores based on how they feel, but because of the name on the product and backlash.

I'm seeing 4/5 stars and 8/10 when they sound more like 6/10 or 3/5.

Grow some fucking balls and rate it how it is. Man this is upsetting. I know it always sort of been there to some extent, but this really is the prime example where its ugly face cannot be ignored.

[MysterD]

That sounds rather contradicting since they were trying to cater to a western audience in the first place.

Square Enix is not catering to a Western-RPG audience here, I don't think. Western-RPG gamers like wide-open RPG's where you have the whole at your disposal (Elder Scrolls, Fallout series) and/or RPG's that open-up the world as you go along with good deals of choice and decision-making in their games that will matter (Witcher, Dragon Age, Mass Effect).

I really am not sure what Square-Enix is aiming here for w/ FF13. It seems odd to me they have removed completely towns and world exploring found in earlier FF games - I always thought those were the nice breaks to take and get more out of the story and immersed into the gameworld, to get you away from the grinding and leveling-up for a bit. FF13 is starting to sound more like a linear game that just flows in one direction than ever before - like your typical strategy old-school FPS. I don't know, but come to think of it - it seems like Square-Enix seems to be making it more like a linear strategy game and less of a RPG.

EDIT:
GTTV review - 8.6 from GTTV.

Hmmm...so you do your shopping at Save Points now in FF13? That sounds a lot like having vending machines being where you buy items and equipment in the gameworld - i.e. Bioshock and Borderlands.

[Pugnate]

This should be at the store in a few days and I am really quite excited for it.

I'm seeing 4/5 stars and 8/10 when they sound more like 6/10 or 3/5.

The thing is that their reviews aren't written well enough to express that they are disappointed with how the game compares to its predecessors, but on the whole is still good enough to take a score of 4 out of 5 or an 8 out of 10.

The reason some of these reviews seem so negative is because they are comparing the product to the ideal, which is why the reader would think the reviewer would give it a score of something like 5 out of 10, when the games are still better than actual games that fall into that bracket.

A lot of reviewers have a different process of writing reviews and deciding scores. When deciding on a score, you basically compare the game to something of a similar genre, which you or your publication (if you wish to main consistency with the website/magazine you are writing for) reviewed.

For example, say someone was really disappointed with Far Cry 2, and wrote a mostly negative review... they could still feel that the game was better than other shooters they have given scores in the 70 percentile, even if they were quite disappointed.

It actually comes down to the skill of the writer. He has to be able to express why he is disappointed, but what still makes the game worth a score of 4/5 or 80%

One final thing. The majority of the writers who I have noticed disappointed with FF13, have still gone on to state that it is still one of the best offerings on the Xbox 360/PS3.

[Cobra951]

I have to say, after reading some reviews, this game really shows how broken gaming journalists are. I mean this is just bad. The reviewers aren't giving scores based on how they feel, but because of the name on the product and backlash.

I'm seeing 4/5 stars and 8/10 when they sound more like 6/10 or 3/5.

Grow some fucking balls and rate it how it is. Man this is upsetting. I know it always sort of been there to some extent, but this really is the prime example where its ugly face cannot be ignored.

Heh.  I see what you mean.  If you work your way up the list, you get near the 90s before you stop seeing criticism serious enough to drop the scores lower.

[MysterD]

4 stars from GameSpy (out of 5).

Thank goodness for the battle system, then, because it saves the game while you're wincing through the saccharine banter and waiting for the training wheels to spin off.

IGN's impressions, some 30 hours into it.

As a quick note for owners of multiple platforms, I strongly recommend getting this game on the PS3. The 360 version seems to run well enough, but it's noticeably less sharp and is spread across three discs.

Check back Monday for my full review.

[Pugnate]

Players are not allowed to choose their party or party leader -- these selections are dictated by the story progression. Although this might be a tremendous pain to some gamers, I actually enjoyed the linearity and restrictions, because it forced me to experiment with all the characters and their various battle roles.

This confuses me a little. He enjoyed the linearity in choosing his party because it allowed him the freedom to experiment with the party? I don't understand.

[MysterD]

This confuses me a little. He enjoyed the linearity in choosing his party because it allowed him the freedom to experiment with the party? I don't understand.

Hmmm...maybe it has to do w/ the experimentation on the Paradigm Shifts and Role Switching?
I dunno...
*shrug*

[Pugnate]

Sure he could be enjoying those things... but how does the linearity allow him to enjoy those things more?

[MysterD]

Sure he could be enjoying those things... but how does the linearity allow him to enjoy those things more?

Maybe he would've stuck w/ the top 3 party members if the game didn't force stuff on him?
Who knows...
*shrug*

I dunno, but Bioware has been known to use the same tactics in some games - see KOTOR and DAO. At certain points and certain areas, they may just force ONE certain party member into the area/quest.

[Pugnate]

Yea, but that's normally related to a plot point or something.

[Xessive]

In my experience with all FF games, speculation will get me nowhere because they're too abstract to properly convey. I really have to play it thoroughly first then come to a solid conclusion. I think that's safe to say for any Square Enix game.

P.S. I am currently replaying FFVIII on PSP since I never did finish it.

[PyroMenace]

Square Enix is not catering to a Western-RPG audience here, I don't think. Western-RPG gamers like wide-open RPG's where you have the whole at your disposal (Elder Scrolls, Fallout series) and/or RPG's that open-up the world as you go along with good deals of choice and decision-making in their games that will matter (Witcher, Dragon Age, Mass Effect).

I really am not sure what Square-Enix is aiming here for w/ FF13. It seems odd to me they have removed completely towns and world exploring found in earlier FF games - I always thought those were the nice breaks to take and get more out of the story and immersed into the gameworld, to get you away from the grinding and leveling-up for a bit. FF13 is starting to sound more like a linear game that just flows in one direction than ever before - like your typical strategy old-school FPS. I don't know, but come to think of it - it seems like Square-Enix seems to be making it more like a linear strategy game and less of a RPG.

EDIT:
GTTV review - 8.6 from GTTV.

Hmmm...so you do your shopping at Save Points now in FF13? That sounds a lot like having vending machines being where you buy items and equipment in the gameworld - i.e. Bioshock and Borderlands.

No they were going more western with it, they just went another way with it. Instead of going more RPG, they wanted something more like what the triple A third person and first person games felt like. Just trying to broaden their audience with it.

It's a deliberate design decision on producer Yoshinori Kitase and co's part, of course - an effort to lend the game what director Momotu Toriyama calls an "FPS style vibe". He's obviously been playing the scripted Modern Warfare series and taken notes.

[K-man]

I feel way too badly about not finishing 12 to purchase 13.

[gpw11]

Yeah, I really want to get into playing IX or XII again.

[Quemaqua]

I still haven't finished XII just because I like the bastard too much.  One of these days, when I have a PS2 again.