Author Topic: Dear MysterD  (Read 10556 times)

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #40 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 12:06:32 AM »
What is wrong with gaming on a couch Que?

Nothing wrong with it at all.  Read the Alan Wake thread for details.
« Last Edit: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 01:36:00 AM by Quemaqua »

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Offline gpw11

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #41 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 12:33:30 AM »
Read it and I agree.  It is kind of a stupid argument.

Offline scottws

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #42 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 06:00:50 AM »
I hadn't thought about it, but reading that Alan Wake thread does make it seem like Microsoft is purposely sabotaging PC gaming.  The theory thrown around in there was that Microsoft wants more games only on 360 so people buy those.  What isn't being considered though is that if PC gaming dies, what really binds people to Windows in their homes?

For years people have been saying they'd like to give Linux or Mac OS X a shot but there are no games so they are forced to stay with Windows.  If the games go out the window (pun intended), I think there could be a hemorrhage of people ditching Windows in the home.  In fact, I really think it's begun.  At airports, I see more people with Mac laptops than PC laptops and it's not even close like 1.1:1.  I see like 5:1 Mac to PC.  I don't know if this is related to PC gaming at all, since laptops generally don't make great game machines but five years ago you didn't see 5:1 MacBook to PC laptop in the airport, that's for damn sure.  It was more like 10:1 PC to Mac.

Does Microsoft stand to make more money if people use 360's as their console but end up getting an iMac or MacBook for their computing needs?

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #43 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 06:20:14 AM »
Maybe it just seems that way? I remember reading that Mac market share dropped a percent back to 9 percent while Windows was at 90%.

edit:

OK it is apparently even a bigger gap than that:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10445776-56.html

Quote
In September, ahead of Windows 7's release, Windows had 92.77 percent of the market, compared to 5.12 percent for the Mac.

Offline scottws

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #44 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 06:55:05 AM »
Oh yeah Windows still has the lion's share, but Apple's been making gains.  Not in business (which I can attest they could care less about), but in homes.

Anyway, regardless of the perceived versus actual market, my question remains.  If the barrier to entry for Linux and Mac collapses with the withering or utter death of the PC games market, those platforms could start seeing big gains in installed base at the expense of Microsoft.  If Microsoft gains some Xbox 360 customers at the expense of OS and potentially office suite customers, is it a win for them?

Offline idolminds

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #45 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 10:49:19 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing a switch over to Linux (Macs are too expensive for what they are). The hard part is getting companies to make a Linux version, instead of just abandoning PC entirely and focusing on consoles. You'd need something big like Rage or Civilization 5 to be Linux only with no Windows version. Which doesn't seem like to ever happen. And until Valve releases a Linux Steam client, none of those people will ever switch.

I think PC gaming is in store for a real rough patch in the next couple years. Its going to change drastically, we'll see far fewer big name games but I hope we see a rise in indie games. Companies that play to the strengths of the PC platform instead of making a dirty console port as an afterthought. PC gamers are getting tired of being treated like shit.

Offline K-man

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #46 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 02:06:11 PM »
Nothing wrong with it at all.  Read the Alan Wake thread for details.

Just checked that out.  Stupid reasoning for not bringing a game to a platform.  Course that's probably not the real reason at all.


Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #47 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 02:09:59 PM »
Indeed.  I just really get sick of hearing it.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #48 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 04:19:10 PM »
I wouldn't mind seeing a switch over to Linux (Macs are too expensive for what they are). The hard part is getting companies to make a Linux version, instead of just abandoning PC entirely and focusing on consoles. You'd need something big like Rage or Civilization 5 to be Linux only with no Windows version. Which doesn't seem like to ever happen. And until Valve releases a Linux Steam client, none of those people will ever switch.

I think PC gaming is in store for a real rough patch in the next couple years. Its going to change drastically, we'll see far fewer big name games but I hope we see a rise in indie games. Companies that play to the strengths of the PC platform instead of making a dirty console port as an afterthought. PC gamers are getting tired of being treated like shit.
I'm not talking about PC gaming becoming Mac or Linux gaming.  I'm talking about PC gaming going away and existing only on consoles.  Then what advantage does Windows have over Linux or Mac other than the fact it's usually what people use at work?

That's what I mean when I allude to the fact that Microsoft sabotaging PC gaming could bite them in the ass.  Sure, they might get more people to buy 360s but they also might lose Windows customers at the same time.  Maybe Office customers too.

Offline K-man

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #49 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 04:23:32 PM »
Scott, you're severely underestimating the population that will continue to use Windows because it's bundled with their new PC or because they're used to it.  The vast populace doesn't want to seek out another OS.  They just want their computer to work so they can view e-mail and porn.

Offline scottws

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #50 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 04:28:34 PM »
...and you can do any of those things on any OS.  Look, I am not saying that there would be a drastic shift in the market but rather that the potential for a shift would be there.  One of the biggest draws of Windows has always been that that's where the games were.  If there aren't any games, then the only thing that Microsoft has is recognition as you allude to.

Either way, it's a gamble.  Sure Microsoft might keep people buying Windows and Office at home and add a Xbox, but the incentive to keep Windows around won't be as strong and I could see a lot of people switching to a Mac.  A majority?  Probably not, but enough that it might not be a good idea for them to sabotage PC gaming at the expense of lost sales of Windows.  Then again, I am sure they have guys working the numbers on all this stuff and maybe it'll drastically increase their profits even if they lose 20% of the home OS market.  I'm just not so sure.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #51 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 06:05:35 PM »
I'm with K-man.  Regardless of the logic, they just aren't going to lose 20% of the market, or at least I can't see that as being likely.  The possibility could always be there, but that doesn't make it likely.  More likely is that more people move to their console and nobody switches their OS and they come out on top because people are fucking suckers.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #52 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 07:33:02 PM »
I am (or was) a techie.  And even I feel a sense of insecurity when I try to do things on a computer through unfamiliar tools.  Scott, Linux is probably old hat to you by now, but for me it would be a significant climb to get anywhere near as comfortable with it as I am with Windows.  I know exactly what to do in just about any situation.  I know intimately what goes right and what goes wrong.  Pull that rug out, and it will take me a while to find my feet again.  I can't imagine any significant number of even less adept consumers choosing to go through with that, even if they're pissed at Microsoft, which most of them won't be in any case.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #53 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 11:22:02 PM »
This can be split off into its own thread, but it got me thinking. What if Microsoft had poured this much money, time, and resources into PC gaming instead of starting the Xbox line? I mean, they were the total underdogs in the console space and they decided to dump money into it to fight against Sony and Nintendo. The Xbox never made money for them, and the 360 has had its issues that cost them a lot. They still arent on top, with the PS2 winning last gen and the Wii taking this one. Though I guess they are currently "on top" as far as HD consoles go.

But what if all that was for the PC instead. They basically have no competition in that space. They could have "consolized" PC gaming, but in a different way. Xbox branded video cards that were guaranteed to run games? Imagine getting nvidia and ATI on that, where as long as it has an "Xbox" sticker you know that that card will run those games (like with my idea of "minimum system requirements" should dictate a certain level of performance at a certain resolution). The card makers could of course make faster cards and they could advertise as such, just as long as they hit that minimum spec.

The Marketplace, Live Arcade, even Live matchmaking would have been easier to set up and would have beaten Steam to the punch. Of course they probably wouldn't have been able to charge people for it...guess that was their reasoning. No idea how much money that actually brings in for them though.

But its interesting to think of how different things would be if MS pushed PC gaming to be the superior gaming platform we know it is. And yes, we'd still have DLC and such but that seems like an inevitability. Only now MS is actively killing PC gaming and Valve/Steam has stepped in to take over (which is fucking WORSE in my opinion).

Oh well, I think I'll go cry now.

Offline ren

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #54 on: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 11:57:06 PM »
I would cry for the opposite reason. Microsoft getting into the console game may have been detrimental to pc gaming but it did wonders for console gaming. Xbox live, DLC, marketplace, media center, the awesome controller, hard drives in consoles. Without the xbox there's no way we would've gotten all of that for $299. Right now I have a $300 computer that does everything I want and a $300 console which can do far more than play games and I'll never have to worry about system requirements or copy protection again. I'd take that over a PC gaming renaissance any day.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #55 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:06:45 AM »
We can no longer be friends.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #56 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:13:02 AM »
...and you can do any of those things on any OS.  Look, I am not saying that there would be a drastic shift in the market but rather that the potential for a shift would be there.  One of the biggest draws of Windows has always been that that's where the games were.  If there aren't any games, then the only thing that Microsoft has is recognition as you allude to.

Either way, it's a gamble.  Sure Microsoft might keep people buying Windows and Office at home and add a Xbox, but the incentive to keep Windows around won't be as strong and I could see a lot of people switching to a Mac.  A majority?  Probably not, but enough that it might not be a good idea for them to sabotage PC gaming at the expense of lost sales of Windows.  Then again, I am sure they have guys working the numbers on all this stuff and maybe it'll drastically increase their profits even if they lose 20% of the home OS market.  I'm just not so sure.

I think the problem is that MS knows that for a shift like that to happen, they'd have to make some drastic changes which really tick PC gamers off.

The reason why such a shift wouldn't occur is the same reason Cobra didn't buy a PS3 when his 360 died.

The problem is that we are too heavily invested in PC gaming....

From what I understand, developing DX games for another other OS is impossible/illegal, because MS owns DX, and while there was a time when DX and OpenGL were competitive, DX has blown much further ahead.

Then, it isn't like a console where you can just own two. Here you have to dual boot, and while guys like us wouldn't mind, the average gamer would find it too daunting.

The other issue is that to develop for another OS, a developer would have to take a massive risk, and I can't see anyone trying that aside from some big name publishers.

The final thing is WHY. Why would we want to shift. I mean, yes, MS is massively indifferent to gaming on the PC, but it is indifference, not sabotage.

Windows is still an open platform, so would it be worth the effort to go to another one?

By the way, I like a lot of ideas in this thread. It would have been interesting if MS had instead focused on making PC gaming.

Ren makes a few excellent points as well.

There is also no doubt that the launch of the Xbox 360 helped PC gaming to some degree. At least for the first two years of the 360's cycle there was a definite phase where where PC gaming got a boost because there was a sudden jump in technology which wouldn't have happened otherwise. Then you had a lot of development for the 360 of console style games which ended up being ported to the PC.

edit:

I'd also like to point something else out. Just look at how long it takes when there is a new OS (like Vista) for video card manufacturers and game developers to get their act together. In many ways Windows 7 is like Vista SP4. The point is that it takes the developers of the OS, the video card manufacturers and game developers many years just to get games performing at an acceptable level on a new OS. For the first few years XP was easily outperforming Vista in gaming... it is just a huge undertaking.

I think MS realizes all of this. They know that not one, but a few software giants would have to get together and put in a massive undertaking to make another platform a reasonable competitor to gaming on Windows.

And while there has been indifference, MS knows it shouldn't kill PC gaming all together. That's why they continue to release substantial updates to direct X.

Besides, all console development happens on Windows anyway.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #57 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:24:42 AM »
I read an interesting theory about how making DX10 Vista exclusive and then Vista failing to capture the market really killed MS's interest in PC gaming. But that was their own damn fault, really. Now with Windows 7 actually catching on maybe they will try? At this point I sort of doubt it.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #58 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:32:46 AM »
All console development happens on Windows, and all 360 development is a hop, skip & jump away from working directly on Windows.  What this tells me is that the problem is with developers and their attitudes, of which Microsoft is only one.  If piracy is the root cause of their flight to the safety of consoles, well, what can be done?  We don't want draconian DRM or loss of control over what we buy.  They want money.  If there is no middle ground, game over.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #59 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:47:11 AM »
Remember how MS used to push how easy it was to release games on both 360 and PC? What happened there? Why didn't they follow through and push that more?

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #60 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:55:07 AM »
All console development happens on Windows, and all 360 development is a hop, skip & jump away from working directly on Windows.  What this tells me is that the problem is with developers and their attitudes, of which Microsoft is only one.  If piracy is the root cause of their flight to the safety of consoles, well, what can be done?  We don't want draconian DRM or loss of control over what we buy.  They want money.  If there is no middle ground, game over.

But still, MS is the biggest problem. While they truly seem to be indifferent, the least they could do is follow through on some of their projects. It has been years but G4WL is still a buggy piece of crap, and makes Steam look like a bank next to it.

A few days ago Bioshock 2 came out, and required saving be done online and through G4WL.

Well all hell broke loose. Remember my thread about being unable to access the online features of Arkham Asylum because G4WL kept crashing? Well, at least I could play online.

The forums of Bioshock 2 are full of LIVID people who apparently can't access their game because G4WL can't seem to work for them. I actually learned of this through the PCG podcast forums, where someone mentioned he couldn't load his game, until he deleted the save folder, but now he can't save his game or something.

Remember those rumors about MS buying EA. Well, while that would have been impossible (EA makes a great deal of money selling games on the PS2 and PS3, to be worth the cost they'd have to continue to sell on those platforms), I am still glad it didn't somehow happen.

MS as a publisher is not at all interested in bringing its games to Windows.

Quote
Remember how MS used to push how easy it was to release games on both 360 and PC? What happened there? Why didn't they follow through and push that more?

What happened was that Vista was out, and the PC gamers who were going to be sucked into buying it, bought it.

I think it was all a marketing ploy.

The whole G4W thing and DX10 thing ran out of steam the moment Vista was launched.

It could also be that Vista had the lowest Windows adoption rate of all time. Meanwhile, Win 7 is setting all sorts of records. It could be that MS didn't want to invest further in a sinking ship.

edit:

I was reading the other day that MS is planning to make Windows 8 a huge departure from anything they've done before. Apparently it is going to be like the leap to Win 95, and they were still talking about making direct x a big part of it, so it seems that at least some minimum level of interest from MS will continue.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #61 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 06:59:19 AM »
The Steam Jan. 2010 Survey is very interesting - as it shows that even w/ Win 7 out and Vista been around forever, approx. 42% of their users (that actually participated in the survey) are STILL running Win XP 32-bit; which is the most popular OS Steam users have.

About G4WL - w/ all its DRM stupidities (see 15 install limit on Bioshock 2 PC) and the damn saving profile issues bullcrap people have had with it (see Bioshock 2 PC, Gears PC, and Arkham Asylum PC) - it freaking sucks, for the most part.

I must say, though - the interface is much better than how it was when it first launched (it was too console-like then). Best thing about G4WL - I can talk/e-mail my nephew through there and all - since XBL and G4WL are tied together - he has XBL; I have G4WL. And it's cool that if you have both, you can use one account for both XBL and G4WL. That's about all I really like about G4WL.

EDIT:
Quote from: Pug
I was reading the other day that MS is planning to make Windows 8 a huge departure from anything they've done before. Apparently it is going to be like the leap to Win 95, and they were still talking about making direct x a big part of it, so it seems that at least some minimum level of interest from MS will continue.
M$ would be crazy NOT to keep DirectX a big part of Windows, since their API is the most readily used here on the PC, these days and age - especially commercially. There's just way too many Indie and big-name game studios out there that are still releasing games on the Windows platform and are using DX Only.

As interesting as a re-emergence of OpenGL might actually sound, I don't think Microsoft would be willing to let that happen. That might REALLY hurt their OS sales - as maybe more dev's and gamers would think of just supporting OpenGL and its multiple PC platforms (PC, Mac, Linux). I think if M$ stopped DX and suddenly OpenGL re-emerged as a big-time player on the scene, we might see more games being made supporting multiple PC platforms in one box like Blizzard often does - with their games often out the box supporting Windows and Mac. Though, you might see say Linux also tossed on gameboxes, too. If M$ stopped supporting DX, I think Windows itself as a platform would be in for a major hurting...

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #62 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 08:16:13 AM »
But still, MS is the biggest problem. While they truly seem to be indifferent, the least they could do is follow through on some of their projects. It has been years but G4WL is still a buggy piece of crap, and makes Steam look like a bank next to it.

A few days ago Bioshock 2 came out, and required saving be done online and through G4WL.

Well all hell broke loose. Remember my thread about being unable to access the online features of Arkham Asylum because G4WL kept crashing? Well, at least I could play online.

The forums of Bioshock 2 are full of LIVID people who apparently can't access their game because G4WL can't seem to work for them. I actually learned of this through the PCG podcast forums, where someone mentioned he couldn't load his game, until he deleted the save folder, but now he can't save his game or something.

OK, hold it there.  That illustrates my point, both of them actually.  Bioshock 2 doesn't have to use G4WL.  That was somebody's choice.  Bioshock 2 doesn't have to wrest control and ownership away from its buyers.  That was somebody's choice.  (See my scathing comments about that one in the game's thread.)  Steam, which you mentioned, is another choice, not tied to Microsoft.  As much as I personally hate it, it's enjoying massive success, and it's a rational (oooh . . .) choice for 2K Marin.  And there are other choices too, of course, none of which are Microsoft's, as far as I know.  Therefore, Microsoft can't be blamed with sabotaging the game on PC.  Microsoft's indifference is irrelevant as well.

Offline scottws

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #63 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 09:00:49 AM »
I am (or was) a techie.  And even I feel a sense of insecurity when I try to do things on a computer through unfamiliar tools.  Scott, Linux is probably old hat to you by now, but for me it would be a significant climb to get anywhere near as comfortable with it as I am with Windows.  I know exactly what to do in just about any situation.  I know intimately what goes right and what goes wrong.  Pull that rug out, and it will take me a while to find my feet again.  I can't imagine any significant number of even less adept consumers choosing to go through with that, even if they're pissed at Microsoft, which most of them won't be in any case.
I mentioned Linux only as an option.  If you read my posts more closely you will realize I think that most people would choose a Mac over Linux even if I didn't state it overtly.

And yes techies know Windows in and out.  But the average person is just a user with no knowledge to fix even simple issues on Windows and can easily use a different OS.  Jennie uses my Linux laptop all the time to check the Internet and e-mail and I've never had to tell her how to use it.  Overall interface design isn't really all that different amongst computer OS' for most of the functions.

I think the problem is that MS knows that for a shift like that to happen, they'd have to make some drastic changes which really tick PC gamers off.

The reason why such a shift wouldn't occur is the same reason Cobra didn't buy a PS3 when his 360 died.

The problem is that we are too heavily invested in PC gaming....

From what I understand, developing DX games for another other OS is impossible/illegal, because MS owns DX, and while there was a time when DX and OpenGL were competitive, DX has blown much further ahead.

Then, it isn't like a console where you can just own two. Here you have to dual boot, and while guys like us wouldn't mind, the average gamer would find it too daunting.

The other issue is that to develop for another OS, a developer would have to take a massive risk, and I can't see anyone trying that aside from some big name publishers.

The final thing is WHY. Why would we want to shift. I mean, yes, MS is massively indifferent to gaming on the PC, but it is indifference, not sabotage.

Windows is still an open platform, so would it be worth the effort to go to another one?

By the way, I like a lot of ideas in this thread. It would have been interesting if MS had instead focused on making PC gaming.

Ren makes a few excellent points as well.

There is also no doubt that the launch of the Xbox 360 helped PC gaming to some degree. At least for the first two years of the 360's cycle there was a definite phase where where PC gaming got a boost because there was a sudden jump in technology which wouldn't have happened otherwise. Then you had a lot of development for the 360 of console style games which ended up being ported to the PC.

edit:

I'd also like to point something else out. Just look at how long it takes when there is a new OS (like Vista) for video card manufacturers and game developers to get their act together. In many ways Windows 7 is like Vista SP4. The point is that it takes the developers of the OS, the video card manufacturers and game developers many years just to get games performing at an acceptable level on a new OS. For the first few years XP was easily outperforming Vista in gaming... it is just a huge undertaking.

I think MS realizes all of this. They know that not one, but a few software giants would have to get together and put in a massive undertaking to make another platform a reasonable competitor to gaming on Windows.

And while there has been indifference, MS knows it shouldn't kill PC gaming all together. That's why they continue to release substantial updates to direct X.

Besides, all console development happens on Windows anyway.
Do people even read what I write?  I thought it was pretty clear that I was talking about a scenario in which computer gaming is dead and only console gaming exists.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #64 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 09:07:55 AM »
Well, replace "Linux" with "Mac", and what I said dilutes only somewhat.  :)  People used to Windows PCs are unlikely to switch over, and the Mac has never been a strong gaming platform anyway.

Edit:  Yeah, man, we read what you posted.  I did anyway.  But if this unlikely scenario where games disappear entirely from personal computers comes to pass, then people will have no incentive to switch anything.  They'll stick with what they know for email, browsing, media, and productivity tools.  Not much room for an interesting conversation there.

Offline scottws

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #65 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 09:09:39 AM »
Well, replace "Linux" with "Mac", and what I said dilutes only somewhat.  :)  People used to Windows PCs are unlikely to switch over, and the Mac has never been a strong gaming platform anyway.

Why do I bother speaking?  For the love of God I am talking about a situation where gaming only exists on consoles!!!  I like to think that what I said previously was crystal clear.

Quote from: scottws
The theory thrown around in there was that Microsoft wants more games only on 360 so people buy those.  What isn't being considered though is that if PC gaming dies, what really binds people to Windows in their homes?

For years people have been saying they'd like to give Linux or Mac OS X a shot but there are no games so they are forced to stay with Windows.  If the games go out the window (pun intended), I think there could be a hemorrhage of people ditching Windows in the home.

Quote from: scottws
Anyway, regardless of the perceived versus actual market, my question remains.  If the barrier to entry for Linux and Mac collapses with the withering or utter death of the PC games market, those platforms could start seeing big gains in installed base at the expense of Microsoft.

Quote from: scottws
I'm not talking about PC gaming becoming Mac or Linux gaming.  I'm talking about PC gaming going away and existing only on consoles.  Then what advantage does Windows have over Linux or Mac other than the fact it's usually what people use at work?

Quote from: scottws
Do people even read what I write?  I thought it was pretty clear that I was talking about a scenario in which computer gaming is dead and only console gaming exists.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #66 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 09:20:21 AM »
OK, I will reply directly to those quotes, which I think I comprehend completely.  First, see my edit to my previous post.  More succinctly, the barriers to switching from one OS or computer philosophy to another are massive for most people, and they will not do it over gaming (which disappeared from all computers, right?).

Offline idolminds

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #67 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 09:30:03 AM »
I don't really see a situation ever developing where gaming only exists on consoles. As long as computers can play games, people will make games for them.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #68 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 10:16:57 AM »
Sorry Scott, obviously when you say PC gaming, you mean Linux and Macs. That's how it should be of course... but with the whole Mac vs PC stuff, I always think of PC as Windows when it obviously isn't *just* windows.

I thought you were talking a shift from Windows gaming to Linux or Macs.

Offline ren

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #69 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:04:33 AM »
If games didn't exist on Windows, I don't think that too much would change. Among my group of friends, the breakdown is probably about 90% Windows, 10% Mac. Of that 90%, not a single person plays games on their pc. For them, a computer isn't a consideration as a gaming platform. The main reason for that is that none of them own a desktop. We're all on laptops and gaming laptops suck and are far more expensive than the alternatives. And we're all on Windows instead of linux because it does what we need and we know how to use it. Actually, most of them barely know how to use windows, I can't imagine anyone wanting to learn anything new to switch to Linux or even Macs.

I realize that it's pretty irrelevant to your point because it ignores the people who currently do play games on their computers. But it does make me wonder. Laptops are a much bigger portion of the computer market than they were 5 or 10 years ago. That has to contribute in some way to the decrease in pc gaming's popularity.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #70 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:13:44 AM »
Laptops are a much bigger portion of the computer market than they were 5 or 10 years ago. That has to contribute in some way to the decrease in pc gaming's popularity.
I'm sure that doesn't help PC gaming, either - since many game companies only support desktop-powered video cards.

EDIT:
I don't really see a situation ever developing where gaming only exists on consoles. As long as computers can play games, people will make games for them.
I'm sure for every PC developers we lose on the PC to go strictly console or PC dev that goes multi-platform (PC and console) - there'll be another dev' company popping up supporting the PC. And it's probably a cycle that wouldn't break, either. It's just the way it goes...

Offline W7RE

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #71 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:20:34 AM »
Gaming is my main reason for keeping my computer up to date, as well as my OS. If I find there's nothing on PC I want to play (currently there's MMOs and the odd FPS that's PC only) I'll stop upgrading my PC and OS. I could use Win XP 32-bit for another 10 years as long as it still lets me do web/email and watch streaming video (like Youtube). I wouldn't want to switch because of my familiarity with Windows, and the fact that yes, all those older games I own can still run on it (well, most of them).

So in short, PC gaming dying off completely won't get me to switch OS, but it will get me to stop upgrading my OS and my hardware.

Offline K-man

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #72 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:47:52 AM »

So in short, PC gaming dying off completely won't get me to switch OS, but it will get me to stop upgrading my OS and my hardware.

Exactly.  Ultimately what the majority of the population wants is something familiar to them.  If it isn't broken, they have no interest in fixing it.  Oh, and most of these people's PC gaming consists of Bejeweled, Peggle, and Mafia Wars.

Offline ren

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Re: Dear MysterD
« Reply #73 on: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:58:25 AM »
Most people upgrade because their computers get slow over time since they don't know how to maintain them. And with laptops, they physically break and need to be upgraded. Except for the high-end, computer sales wouldn't go down without pc gaming.

And there is a need for faster computers among the mainstream. Computers that are a few year old stutter when playing high definition video. People will need bigger hard drives and will buy a new computer instead of trying to upgrade themselves. USB 3.0 will be coming out soon and as soon as devices start to take advantage of that, people will buy new computers.