Topic: FFXII?

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, the Nebraeus Deadlands and the Necrohol are pretty much where I'm spending my time now in post-100-hour land.  You'll see a lot more stuff most likely before you come back to visit those in earnest.  The Necrohol is more or less the game's ultimate dungeon from what I've ascertained.  There's a lot of optional stuff to do there.  It's been fun diving in so far, even the weak enemies that I can normally take out without much issue will sometimes surprise me with a trick or two and kill a character before I realize what's going down (I shouldn't admit that, it proves I occasionally watch a little TV while I'm playing -- I do this with a lot of RPGs where I enjoy taking long walks or looking for items).

Oh, and I think I beat the bomb boss at the point you're at now, so you aren't alone.  Though I guess there's a trick where you can earn some crap with him or something (since you can flee), but I killed him before I'd heard about it.

[Cobra951]

Quick question.  All this loot I get, should I always sell it?  I know teleport stones and those greens chocobos like have other uses.  But should I generally sell everything I get hoping for Bazaar goodies?

I played a bit of FF III (US) today.  I do that sometimes--get into an earlier game in a series as a sort of perspective deal.  Well, I have to tell you, the music in XII is good, but it absolutely pales in comparison to Uematsu's work.  The emotional-impact difference is night and day.

[angrykeebler]

FUCKING SLANT EYED BASTARDS

[Quemaqua]

That seems to be the general consensus, but I honestly can't agree.  Uematsu is an amazing songwriter, up there with the best in the business to be sure, but he has plenty of limitations, and frankly I think he relies too much on emotional and even outright sappy stuff.  No Final Fantasy soundtrack other than FFXII is in my top 5 for this very reason.  I really do enjoy a lot of them, but I still find that problematic when taking them as a whole.

Actually, it's recently come to my attention that I feel exactly the same about the stories.  There's been talk here about how some past stories have been better because there was more emotional context and more complex relationships between characters, but honestly, I'm feeling now that they rely way too much on those relationships to make the surrounding events interesting.  And it seems like it's the same 4 archetypes used over and over, which leads to characters that end up feeling like toys to me in the end.  I loved the hell out of FFX (for very different reasons than XII), but I wanted to punch Titus and Wakka in the face for at least half of their screen time.  It was a great game, and I did like the story, but 95% of what was driving me was the character relationships... I really didn't care how things turned out in the end, which is probably the main reason I never finished it.  I'd type more about the other games, but you can probably figure out what my misgivings are if you'd played them anyway.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while in some ways less emotional, XII feels like by far the most mature FF I've played.  Characters actually seem to stand for ideals and I actually care about what's happening in the story because it feels like there's real consequence there (the superior localization and huge volume of contextual dialogue with minor NPCs helps this a great deal).  Like everybody else, I think a few more ties between characters and a little more poignant emotional stuff would definitely make the game much better, but unlike everybody else, I think if you're going to end up lacking something, lacking the sap is definitely preferable for me.  I might change my tune if I ever felt like the emotion was conveyed well enough (like Jackie's relationship with his girlfriend in The Darkness), but... eh.  Maybe some other time.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent there.  I'd just been thinking about that for a few days when I realized that I'm actually really interested in seeing the end of XII and haven't really cared much with some of the others.  The same formula applies to my thoughts on the music, though.  I like Uematsu's stuff, but I think he fails at doing anything for me as soon as he moves outside his comfort zone, where Sakimoto can consistently move me to tears even when he isn't doing something "emotional" (like the Westersand music... I tear up or even cry whenever I listen to that song outside the game).

Um... *Cough* yeah.  So as for your loot question: selling everything will get you in trouble.  In fact, you probably already sold at least one item that relates to a later quest... though I think there's only one.  The Giant Serpentskin (I think) is used for something, though I can't remember exactly what.  The way it works is that if you sell loot related to a recipe (i.e. ItemA x1, ItemB x2 = ItemC), it keeps track of that until the bazaar item is unlocked for purchase.  So you might sell 99 of ItemA, but if you then sell 2 of ItemB, 98 of ItemA are essentially "wasted" in terms of unlocking another purchase.  In other words, if there was another recipe along the lines of ItemA x 33, ItemC x1 = ItemD, but you'd sold 99 of ItemA to unlock the prior recipe, then you're going to have to go farm another 33 of ItemA in order to unlock the latter recipe.

It's a little confusing.  I think I said it here already, but use this loot FAQ to at least get an idea of how it works if you still aren't clear.  And frankly, using a guide is pretty much necessary if you actually want to plan this stuff out, and even when using one it can be confusing as hell.  The best use, though, is figuring out what stuff is really rare or useful and what loot is "one shot" stuff that you can just sell off as soon as you get it because it's only used for a single recipe or whatever.  I highly recommend that.  You can avoid FAQs for all other elements of the game, really, but if you want to understand the loot stuff, a guide is a must.  FF games have often been the type of thing where you miss tons of stuff unless you have a guide to tell you about it, and XII is no exception when it comes to some of the more obscure things (you can fish, but good luck ever figuring out how to unlock the minigame without a guide, and it is absolutely guaranteed that you already can't get the game's ultimate weapon because of something you'd never know unless a guide told you -- don't feel bad, I think it happened to every single person who played the game the first time unless they were being cheaty and reading guides up and down).

[Cobra951]

I try not to use guides at all in games I like this much.  Not the first time anyway.  Thanks for the link anyway.  I may yet use it.  Can I at least infer that all the loot minus the couple of things I mentioned should be sold, if maybe not all at once?  What would I do with things like "arcanae" and "glazing" otherwise?

I did resort to maps.  It took me a while to figure out how to ID all the sections of each map in the game itself.  (Analog stick scrolls around, but only the D-pad actually changes the section selected.  Weird.  I might have guessed from the similar behavior in the license board, but I didn't.)  Until I worked that out, I had no idea where a section I needed to visit for a quest was, until I actually walked into it.  (Giza North Bank?  Where the frig is that?)  After too much random wandering around in the desert, I looked up some maps at gamefaqs.  That was good for a couple of instant spoilers, so now that I can read the game's own maps, I've stopped using the outside help.

My take on the music is that it sets the mood of the scene.  If it works outside of the game too, that's great, but that's not its main purpose.  I can see why Uematsu's better known pieces may be called sappy.  There are others, though, which also work really well, without the sap.  They also stick in my head right away.  I find some of XII's music forgettable.  Not all, just some.

I have FF X.  It's been a long while since I got it, and I never did  play very much of it.  There's a much better chance I'll try it again now, or I should say after I'm done with XII.  I'm so happy with the new "real-time" battle system, though, that I don't know that I can go back to the old FF standards for any length of time.  With ZSNES, I can at least get through the random battles in III (VI) at warp speed.    No such luck with X.

[Quemaqua]

I'd say that a little bit of XII's music is forgettable, but there's also a considerable volume on the whole, and it was composed in a pretty short time frame.  Considering just how much there is, I'm surprised that I like as much of it as fervently as I do.  And again, don't misunderstand, as I do appreciate Uematsu's long legacy, I just can't say I prefer it in comparison.  And as far as music that sets scenes and fits the gameworld goes, I find XII's soundtrack infinitely superior to the other FF games in that particular regard.  Might just be me.  I find a lot of Uematsu's stuff memorable enough, but very little of it makes me think back to whatever game it came from (though obviously there are exceptions, particularly with VII, which I think is his best or at least most memorable stuff).

I agree with you that it would be hard to go back to turn-based stuff after the more active system, and probably even harder for me now since I never really liked the turn-based stuff all that much to begin with.  Which reminds me... I still need to finish Eternal Sonata.  Julia played the heck out of it, even did the giant optional dungeon.

As for loot... I can't give you any real answers.  Generally speaking loot is for selling, yes, as that's where you'll make the majority of your cash, and the only stuff you really need to be "careful" about selling is stuff that may serve a significant purpose in terms of unlocking bazaar goods, at least if that loot is very hard to come by.  But if you aren't planning to use a guide, then there's no point worrying about it since you'll never have any idea of what is used to unlock what in the first place.  The best way to go at it blind is to sell all your stuff in small batches repeatedly.  So sell maybe only a few of each item you plan to sell all your stock of, then after selling a few of all those different things, bounce out of the sell menu to see if any goods are unlocked.  Then go back in and start selling the remaining items again in small batches.  According to what I told you earlier, this at least reduces to some degree the number of items you may waste, since no bazaar items will unlock until you bounce out of the sell menu to check, and if you keep selling more and more of the same item without checking, individual items will just get wasted without really contributing to anything.  You don't have to be quite so paranoid if you don't want to, or you could be extra paranoid and bounce out of the menu after selling a few of an individual item (that's the best way to do it blind, but who has the patience for that?).

And it's taken me about 45 minutes to write this because I keep falling asleep.  This probably makes no damned sense at all, but I think I'll just post it and hope for the best.

[Cobra951]

LOL!  My last post has the same problem.  I wanted to get into a more in-depth discussion over the music, but I was so tired that I couldn't formulate the thoughts.  Finally I left it at the short, safe blurb you see above.

I will try the strategy of selling across the loot items in small quantities, then backing out to see if anything pops up in the Bazaar.  It's a shame that they practically force using guides to get the most out of the game.  But then again, the idea of playing honestly is to see how much power you can squeeze out of the game for yourself, and that would always fall short of the ideal (as in real life).  Even talking to you about it in such general terms is a form of cheating.  I'll cheat my ass off the 2nd time through, if I'm not totally sick of the game by then.  I'm well on my way to a hundred hours on this sucker, at least.

[Quemaqua]

I just hit 118 and a half, myself.  I would absolutely play the game twice, but I really don't have the time.  That isn't to say I never will, as I surely could if the craving hit me hard again, but I really have too many other games to play to devote time to another playthrough guilt-free.  So yeah, I'm cheating to a small degree because I really want to see and do everything the first time out, but I try every challenge on my own without the guide and pretty much never use it for known challenges.  The main thing I use it for is finding things that I simply wouldn't know where there.  In theory you can stumble upon some of it, and I have run into a few things just by happy coincidence, but in general this is a game where using a guide doesn't detract as much as some others do.  It's one thing if you use it to get past all the boss fights and such (that's lame), but quite another if you're just trying to get the ball rolling with some of the secret stuff that you'd just pass up unknowingly otherwise.  Because the challenge there isn't finding the stuff, for that's often all but an impossibility, but is instead actually figuring out the puzzle or getting past the challenge itself after you've found it.

Loot is a bit different, though.  If you do it blind it's really just kind of a nice bonus that rewards you for obsessively stealing/poaching/kill chaining and getting rare items, much like WoW or other MMOs, just far less annoying and time consuming.  I've been mostly doing it blind myself without a guide, but I do check if I see something that I think is rare just to make sure I'm not boning myself later when it comes to the ultra-items and stuff, since as I said, I want to get those at some point in this play through since I plan to finish every last hunt and side quest that I can.

[Quemaqua]

The two major threads are merged now (the original bigger thread, and Cobra's offshoot frustration thread which ended up mostly just heading into the same territory as the original after the initial group of posts).

Also, I'm at 129 hours now.  34 hunts down, 6 to go from what's in my roster, and I think there are 2 or 3 more regular hunts available along with another maybe 3 elite hunts.  I've unlocked 2/3 of the bestiary items given the bar along the bottom, and I've managed 9 of the rare marks for the Phon Coast hunt club.  13 items unlocked in the Sky Pirate's Den (most recent was the one you get for defeating the Malboro elite mark).  I've taken 625,744 steps, I've got 334,309 gil, and I've got a character at 48, three at 49, and two at 51.  Currently heading for:

(click to show/hide)

the Ridorana Cataract with Reddas.

Whew.  Have also put in about 13 hours or so into Revenant Wings on my DS, and about 2 into Final Fantasy Tactics Advance which I was lucky enough to pick up recently for 20 bucks including the original box and instructions.  I'm addicted to these games.  XII most of all, but I think my love of that one has migrated a lot of interest over to the other related games.  I've yet to finish Vagrant Story, but I'm pretty close now!

[Cobra951]

I had practically forgotten about Vagrant Story.  I tried that briefly on ePSXe, but wandered away.  I've actually been distracted from FF XII for several days, with one thing or another.  (The latest distraction is Burnout Paradise.)  I need to get back to it.  I have over 90 hours invested into it now.  If you've got 160 hours in, then I know I'll end up spending even more.  I've spent a lot of time aimlessly wandering around, leveling up, trying different equipment and party members, getting and using license points.  What I like least about the game is to be locked into a place with no way out until you finish the story progression within it.  I'm in such a place now, which is one reason I was easily distracted.  At least this chapter in the FF saga seems to keep a consistent party of characters.  I hate how others in the series yank away characters you develop for so long and then drop others on your lap.

[Cobra951]

140 hours and counting.  I'm starting to stack up hunts I can't seem to complete.  One simply won't appear, because the weather won't change to what it needs to in the Tchita Uplands.  Another I think is unreachable in the Deadlands until I get through some story elements there.  I see an island I can't reach, and I see 2 pier-looking sections that look like they line up between the mainland and the island.  Looks like the perfect place for a magically appearing bridge.  I've completed 29 hunts so far, I think.

I have a question about the trophies.  I hooked up with the hunters' club at the Phon coast.  I'm getting trophies from the special harder enemies, and handing them off to Atak, Blok and Stok (clever).  The head guy tells me that this will increase the number of weapons, armor and items available at "the outfitters".  What are "outfitters"?  Are these the normal armaments and items stores?  I have not seen anything special yet, if that's the case.

The game is spectacular.  It far surpasses any JRPG I've ever tried.  The meat of the genre, what you spend 90% of your time on in a game like this, is the battle system, and that has been done so well, so much better than the old random turn-based battles even in the FF series itself, that I don't think I could ever go back.  I thought I had moved on from the genre because of the extreme tedious disconnect of the traditional battle systems.  I hope the FF XII approach gets widely adopted.  It was so disappointing to see the FF clone that was just released for the 360 look like a very pretty, but outdated game, which sticks to the old system.

Beyond that centerpiece, the game really wins in the audiovisuals.  It's very impressive to be immersed in much of what it pulls off.  The scale is amazing, both within given world areas, and as a whole.  (Statues coming to life in the Stillshrine of Miriam is one example I'll always remember.  It reminded me of the original Jason and the Argonauts.  Same kind of unexpected thrill the first time around.)  The story is deep and engaging.  There's so much of it too.  Frustrations are few, although they can be huge, and I already ranted about some.  A more pervasive frustration is the variety of status effects that can be visited on you, and which constantly need to be addressed.  I need about double the number gambit slots to have my mage/support characters handle them all automatically, so I often end up having to micromanage.  And I still need to address a couple of them via items, which I hate to do.  Items run out.  Magick does not.

The gambit system works very well, though, surprisingly well.  I'm using all slots on the mage characters (girls).  The priority I have set up is heavy healing when HP is below half, followed by cures to dangerous status effects, followed by attack rules, and finally followed by buffing and HP topping off.  The more physical characters (guys) only deal with healing HP with the lower form of the cure spell, and have an extra rule in the attack hierarchy, differentiating between who is attacking me and who is attacking them.  I'm Vaan.  The game makes it clear that the main character is Vaan, so that's who I play as.  His gambits are off entirely, and he is always in the party.  He's 12 levels up on everyone else as a result.

I can run through areas with weaker enemies without doing anything beyond attacking my targets and continuing on my merry way.  Anything negative which happens gets automatically handled, and the buffs I like (Haste, Protect, Shell) get renewed when needed.  I still want more gambit slots, though.  There aren't enough characters allowed in the party to specialize mages into offensive and defensive.  I suppose I could fight with 2 mages instead of one mage and one warrior-type, and then specialize into offensive and defensive magic.  But still, it would be nice to be able to program in a full litany of event handling, especially since by now I have so many LP that I can make all characters do absolutely everything.

I went on longer than I intended to.  Much of this will only make sense to Que.  The bottom line is that this game should be experienced by all.  Of all the games in the genre I've ever played, over decades, some excellent in their own right, this one takes the top spot.  Even those who cringe at the idea of a traditional FF game should give it a whirl.

[Quemaqua]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The one thing I find a bit odd is that you can't seem to have your status effects covered gambit-wise.  I guess maybe you just have too much other stuff in there?  I've got 2 characters with an entire spread of status stuff, and I think the only attack options I have for them are to attack the party leader's target and to use Poach on any enemy with critical HP (which is as annoying as it is useful since some enemies are immune to it).

But yeah, I have three characters fully outfitted for support.  Ashe is my white mage, Penelo is my black mage, and Balthier is just sort of a general magic user (as you said, LP is all over the place now, so this mostly has to do with how their equipment boosts their stats, not their abilities themselves).  They cover all status problems and there's almost always at least one of them in the party.  Vaan is built more for speed and he does most of my item stealing during grinds (using the Thief's Cuffs for the extra chance at grabbing good stuff), Basch is my always-bubbled tank who gets berserked/hasted/decoyed frequently so his axe damage output can be made more useful and he can soak up damage.  Fran is pretty much a secondary warrior with a little extra magic focus, doing backup healing and status stuff if things go south (not too many gambits, I just do it manually for the most part if need be).  Fran uses katanas, ninja swords, poles, and crossbows, Basch uses greatswords and axes, Vaan uses regular swords and daggers, Balthier uses his guns and bombs, Penelo uses bows, and Ashe uses maces.

[wizall]

::sigh::  Alright, I'll give this a third attempt.  I've started it twice, but for some reason it hasn't stuck with me.  I've the itch again--not in least part due to you (Cobra) and Q's in-depth discussions--so let's see what happens.  I'm worried I'm not the excitable, patient gamer I once was.

[Quemaqua]

Where is it that you're leaving off?  Some people felt the initial parts were just too slow and whatever.  I didn't find that to be the case because I found everything interesting, but the game shifts massive gears once you really get a full party and can start using gambits.

[Cobra951]

Fran is sort of worthless, isn't she?  I'm keeping my whole party leveled up because when the 3 active members get wiped out, the bench warmers can be brought in to sub, and to revive the others.  Characters 20 levels behind wouldn't last 3 seconds.  But other than that, I wish I could just leave Fran behind.  I keep waiting for her to show her strengths.  So far, she doesn't seem to have any.

I have 3 gambit slots dedicated to the attack hierarchy of the mages.  The other 9 are all healing, buffing and status fixing.  I actually have 2 heal commands, one for <50% before the attack commands, and one for <100% after them.  The idea, which works, is that everyone will have 100% HP at the beginning of each fight, and no time will be wasted healing during a fight until half the HP is depleted.  One of the enhancements on the LP board is superior abilities when HP is full, so I think it's important to top off HP when nothing else is happening.  3 slots go to Protect, Shell and Haste.  That leaves 4 for status fixes, and it just isn't enough.

As I said, I didn't specialize mages.  If I had just one more active party member, I could see it.  But with just 2 auto-fighters, it doesn't seem to be the way to go.  What I do is share the role of the overall mage across the girls, and the role of the heavier fighters across the guys.  Basch is showing more tank-type ability than Balthier, though.  I let Balthier shoot this awesome gun I found by sheer luck.  It jumped 2-3 levels above the previous equipment.  I also have 5 kinds of special shot now (fire, water, earth, dark and silence), so he can do about 8000 damage if I equip him with the element that works best against particular enemies (9999 on critical hits).  Basch just charges in with a sword or holy lance, depending on the enemies.  When he's in and Balthier is out, I hand the gun over to the mage.  It seems to pack pretty much the same wallop, which makes sense.  The gunpowder is doing the work, not her arm.

You didn't answer my question.  What are "outfitters", in terms of the trophy hunts (Phon coast)?  See the 2nd paragraph in my last post, if you need more details.

[Quemaqua]

You're right, I glossed over that one.  The outfitter I believe is specifically some dude at the Phon Coast who sells you stuff, or it might even be the three guys themselves, but I honestly have no evidence for either case.  I've gotten a number of trophies but haven't really bothered to go turn them in yet (especially since I don't know who I want to give them to... each one unlocks different stuff, and I think you pretty much have to give one of them everything if you want the best stuff to unlock, otherwise it's just standard crap you can get elsewhere... I think).

As for Fran, I think she's awesome.  I guess it's just the way I have her set up, but she works well in almost any circumstance... I use her almost constantly.  She does decently with magic, generally hits with a solid punch (and given the weapons she generally uses, she often does multiple hits, which is even better with the accessory that raises crit chance), and is tough enough to tank anything that isn't an incredibly hard hunt.  She makes up the bulk of my tanking along with Basch and also makes a great healing/esuna backup.  I have her geared with heavy armor, as I recall.  I don't generally bubble her, but I give her the bubble belt sometimes when I need a higher pool of HP, especially since she does decently with healing and can generally survive much longer against sustained damage than Ashe or Penelo, my mages.  Vaan sometimes swaps roles with her, though, because even though his magic use isn't as strong (I haven't leveled him any more than anyone else... the obsessive compulsive in me can't do that), he uses shields and I've got a pretty hefty set of elemental-blocking ones that combined with his high HP (if bubbled, plus he uses light armor which increases HP reserves) means he can often weather storms that screw with my other characters.

Lastly, I do gambits very differently from you.  My mages have no attack hierarchy other than the usual "party leader target" item and one for poaching.  No attack spells are automated.  I don't have 2 heal commands for anyone because I never found it helpful.  If I need extra healing outside of a battle, I do it myself, otherwise it's just standard <50% gambits for all (occasionally I stagger the percentages between characters for a specific battle, but not generally).  I've never bothered focusing on topping off HP or going for the "at full HP" stuff.  I do not have my mages do protect or shell, either.  That's done by my fighters (Fran, Basch, Vaan).  I'm actually not sure about haste.  I know I have characters who cast it whenever just to keep it up, but it's also setup to counter Slow.  Might be that I have it set to "Ally: any" and it just means everyone keeps it going, but I'm not sure because I don't think all characters always have it up.  I used to have one that just kept it going on whoever had the most HP or the strongest weapon or something, but I dunno'.  So yeah, subtract at least 4 of your slots and add them to status fixing, and that's the difference between us (one less attack, one less heal, no protect, no shell).  I definitely prefer to have status stuff automated because I *hate* that kind of micromanagement, whereas it's easy for me to see if something else needs doing, and I just tell somebody to do it.  Much more important to automate status stuff for me.

[wizall]

Where is it that you're leaving off?  Some people felt the initial parts were just too slow and whatever.  I didn't find that to be the case because I found everything interesting, but the game shifts massive gears once you really get a full party and can start using gambits.

Not to get too specific (because I'm unable as it's been months), but it was pretty early on.  An hour, maybe?  Two? I realize that's not a fair judge of a game, and I know for a fact a few years ago it would have grabbed me immediately, but the JRPG thing has become somewhat of a chore.  That is, I don't know if I want to invest that amount of time.  Like I said, I've changed as far as gaming goes (most of my time is spent reading now), so meandering and seemingly aimless storylines tend to lose my interest. 

So, in essence, I believe you two (and others) that it's a fantastic game; I just need to get to a point where I feel comfortable playing a game without achievements.  (That last bit is sort of a joke...sort of.)  I'll start up again tomorrow when I'm not shit-housed, and I'll be sure to have questions.  The PS2 controller feels strange in my hands.

[Cobra951]

Well, you do get the Sky Pirate's Den.  You collect character figures based on achievements.  They won't be broadcast to the world, but you could take a picture and post it. 

I'm going to have to rethink strategy based on what you're telling me.  Treating Fran as another generic mage doesn't work well.  I already knew that.  She needs a different approach to be effective.  I was hoping she'd show me her forte, like Basch and Ashe did.  (Sounds like a comedy duo, doesn't it?)  Has not happened, and the party is just getting to Level 60, with Vaan at 72.  I never tried Bubble.  Not once.  More HP?  Cool!  Will have to delve into that.  One thing I hate is how you never seem to get armor that's better all around.  Some stat or other gets seriously trampled by new gear, and sometimes you can't even know it until after you've spent the gil.  I recently had the chance to up Vaan's HP by 500, but lose a shit ton of strength.  I didn't go for it.

Oh, but I like my 2-tier healing gambits with attack sandwiched in between.  That's something that works very well.  Even if you don't care about stat boosts at full HP, I don't want anyone wasting precious attack time on healing characters who were already down near half their health, and I sure don't want to handle it manually after every little fight.  Splitting some tasks across different classes of fighters makes more sense.  Up to now, I've left the weaker mage to do all the support, with me (Vaan) stepping in personally when she gets overwhelmed.  There's no reason I can't have a tank handle the status boosts after the attack commands.  I have several thousand unused LP for each character.  I've tried to stubbornly adhere to traditional roles.  A tank is not supposed to be dealing out sophisticated white, green and time magic.  But here, why not?  I'll also go ahead and get them their 3 quickenings, so their MP triples.

Speaking of quickenings, I am absolutely inept with them.  I cannot make rhyme or reason of WTF I'm supposed to do.  I see button labels pop up now and then, but it's all changing so fast I can't follow it.  It all usually ends up with a "time over", a big MP drain and a lot less damage than I would have expected from all the cinematics.  I'm not much better with the espers.  I feel this is one area I really need to address, but so far I've gotten away with nearly ignoring it.

[TheOtherBelmont]

Speaking of quickenings, I am absolutely inept with them.  I cannot make rhyme or reason of WTF I'm supposed to do.  I see button labels pop up now and then, but it's all changing so fast I can't follow it.  It all usually ends up with a "time over", a big MP drain and a lot less damage than I would have expected from all the cinematics.  I'm not much better with the espers.  I feel this is one area I really need to address, but so far I've gotten away with nearly ignoring it.

Just mash on all three buttons (triangle, circle and X or is it square, circle, and X?) at the same time since the biggest damage comes from chaining more and more combos to end with a huge attack at the end of the chain based on how many chains you've done.  Quickenings do insane damage once you have all of them maxed out.  If you can manage to chain 4 Lv1, 4 Lv2, and 4 Lv3 attacks in a chain you will end the chain with the attack Black Hole, which I've seen cause 65,000 HP of damage.

[Cobra951]

Do you remember the positions of the buttons?  Is it left-top-right, or left-bottom-right . . .  I'll see if I can figure it out.  Thanks.

[TheOtherBelmont]

I have a good feeling its left, top, right.  I don't think circle is even used now that I think about it, its been awhile since I've played.

[Cobra951]

I got a 3-character chain to happen, but again, it seems worse than worthless.  It's counterproductive.  The damage done was nothing special, it took forever, and I ended up with depleted MP bars on everyone.  Oh yay.

[Quemaqua]

I'll give you the details:

Quickenings are a great way to dish out a huge amount of damage in one shot, but some chance and skill is involved.  Yes, every character should eventually get 3 quickenings and have 3 mana bars at their disposal.  Quickenings and espers are both used based on how many of those mana bars it takes to use them.  For instance, you'll notice that you've got 3 levels of quickenings, and the difference is how many bars they eat up.  Espers are the same.  Look through them and you'll notice they take different numbers of bars to summon.

Okay, so a quickening chain is sort of vaguely like a slot machine.  I recommend having a character always perform a level 1 quickening to start because that way all your mana for that character isn't gone in one shot.  If you start with a level 3, you're tapped right from the beginning.  If you start with a 1, that leaves you 2 more bars, which means you'll then have a chance for that character to perform two more level 1 quickenings or a single level 2.

With me?

Once your first action has been selected, the overly-dramatic performance begins (honestly, I think these things are very pretty, but mostly just way too long and kind of obnoxious... they should have been shorter).  Your character will be performing the move, and you'll have your three characters listed at the bottom right along with a depleting timer bar.  The idea here is to select another quickening from any character as fast as possible.  That timer bar goes rapidly down for every moment you don't select another action, but the given options for each character are random.  Hence if you have Vaan use his level 2 ability and the next available option for him is the level 3 one, you won't be able to select it.  So you'll have to either use an option for another character, or if there's nothing available there either, you'll have to shuffle the options by using (I think) R1.  This randomly generates a new set of stuff, so hopefully an option will then come up so you can continue the chain.  If not, you shuffle again.  Often this repeats until the timer runs out and you lose, but hopefully by then you've gotten at least 10 shots in.

The big wild card here is the "Mist Charge" option which shows up periodically for a character.  That means the character will automatically get all 3 of their mana bars charged up again, which means they're fresh and will have all their options open again.  For me personally, if I ever see the Mist Charge option come up, I just repeatedly slam that character's button so that they'll grab the charge and automatically perform whatever action comes up after (this is helpful when everybody's low on mana because after a charge you know that *any* option that comes up for that character will work... so while it can sometimes shoot you in the foot if another better option was available, it's one option that's guaranteed to work without running your timer any lower).

Once you've selected another option from the list, the timer stops counting and you can just watch whatever's left of the current attack animation play out.  Then the next option will begin to animate, and your options shuffle again as the timer starts going down again.  So basically you're just trying to choose options as fast as possible over and over again, hopefully netting you substantial damage.  The timer I think starts with 5 seconds and whatever you don't use carries over to the next round, plus a very, very slight bonus that I don't think amounts to more than maybe a tenth of a second or something.  Very minimal.  In other words speed is all that matters.

Damage is pretty much just how big a chain you can build.  The bigger it is, the more damage you do.  However, there's one big difference, which is what Belmont was talking about: Concurrence.  Basically this is the cherry on the sundae, and what you get depends on what combination of quickenings you got during your chain.  The concurrence comes after you finally fail to get another step in your chain.  You can either get no concurrence at all, or you can get Inferno, Cataclysm, Torrent, Wind Burst, Whiteout, Ark Blast, Luminescence, or Black Hole.  Though these have elemental names, don't be fooled; all damage done is physical, not magical, and that goes for all damage done from the preceding quickenings.  The only differences between the concurrences are the animation and the damage.  Like I said, it's really just the cherry on top, and if you manage to get Black Hole (which requires you to get 4 level 1, 4 level 2, and 4 level 3 quickenings in your chain) you'll be treated to some supremely huge damage.  Damage from concurrences is also dished out in an area, so you can damage large groups of enemies this way.  Often going for a concurrence is where the smart money is, as not getting one means you're only going to damage a single enemy.

Anyway, I hope you somehow get something out of that ungodly mess.  Quickenings are very useful, especially for bosses that get ridiculously nasty when their life drops below 25% or 10% or whatever.  Some bosses also become incredibly resistant to damage at that point, which means a fat quickening chain can save you a lot of whittling time.  Lastly, quickenings are insta-cast, meaning a lot of times you can get them started before a boss uses a crazy ability or some such that wipes the party.

I think the best chain I ever got was 19 or 21.

[Cobra951]

I did get inferno as the end of that one chain I managed to get.  But I expected to see massive carnage on the screen after the nuclear holocaust that the animation showed me.  I wasn't even fighting bosses, but regular enemies (though they were strong, around Level 58 deep in the Lhusu mines).  I don't think any of them went down, and I know I could have done the same amount of damage in a good hit from Vaan's Defender or Balthier's Formalhaut.  Perhaps I missed something.

OK, so the deal is lightning-quick reactions under a very short timer.  Joy.

I reworked the gambits.  I got everyone a full set of magic powers, MP bars and gambit slots, and spread out the workload.  I also cut back on the attack commands to leave more room for other actions.  I handle more status ailments, and I've added Bubble to the party-leader's buffing.  There's still no way to handle all the ills with gambits.  I counted 15 of them, 14 if you don't count Stone, which should only happen if you let Petrify go uncured.  I'm leaving lesser things like Sap and Poison out, as well as Stop and Doom, which don't have undo magic that I know of.  Those need a Remedy.

Oh, and I also added a poach if HP is critical.  That works well, but I have to remember to turn it off with bosses.  All of a sudden I start seeing "Immune" over the nearly dead boss, and I realize Balthier is wasting time he should be using to blast the thing.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that's the only annoying thing with having a poach gambit.  It doesn't work on all enemies, either.  Undead, for instance, can't be poached.

And don't worry too much with the quickenings.  Once you get the hang of it they become pretty simple.  My chains are nearly always over 10 now.  Just try it a few more times, you'll figure it out.

As for gambits... I'll have to boot up my game soon and show you my setup.  I don't know what it is off the top of my head, I just know I'm not having a problem with status stuff.  You seem to be unaware of a few things: Poison has Poisona, and Esuna kills Poison, Blind, Silence, Sleep, Confuse, Petrify, and Immobilize... uh, I think. Don't quote me on that.  Stop can be killed with Dispel, Sap can be reversed with Regen (same as Haste will overwrite Slow), Disease needs Vaccine items or the Cleanse spell you'll eventually get (this is one I don't automate since it's rarer and more serious... no reason to do one for Doom either since you can only Remedy that or just let it happen).  If you can spare the extra magic it costs, Esuna/Esunaga can be used in place of some of the cheaper but more specific status healers, so that may help you out if you just can't seem to fit everything in. Maybe stagger a couple of the specific ones between a few magic users and then just leave a generic Esuna gambit to cover the rest?

[Cobra951]

Whoa, hold up.  You mean I can just use an unconditional "Ally: Any" Esuna gambit?  The logic will be handled internally?  Shit!  Well, yeah, that would make it a lot easier, and leave lots of more room open on the gambits. Crap.  I know buffs work this way, but it did not occur to me to try it with negative effects.  OK, now I feel stupid.  I should have thought of it.  The positive effects are handled without explicit conditionals.  I will be reworking that yet again, obviously.

I didn't know I could use Dispel to cure Stop.  According to the description, it's for removing positive effects from foes.  That will help.  Everything else I knew about.  I do let Doom take its course if I can.  I hate to use Remedies.

[Quemaqua]

Holy shit (scroll down).  PS2 emulation that's playable?  And look at those screens!  I mean, the game doesn't look bad on PS2, but it's unbelievable how nice those screens look.  If this gets to a truly stable, playable level, the graphical fidelity would add so much to it.

[Cobra951]

Oh my God!  Shit.  That looks so good it's hard to believe.  Even if they perfect the whole emulation, it will never run right on my PC.     Some day.

Edit:  Yep.  Shader 1.1 support was just dropped.  Need 2.0 minimum.  I am out of that loop.

[wizall]

Those emulation screens look phenomenal. 

So, I'm about nine hours in now and hooked.  Love it, but one question:  What's the best way to approach loot?  Right now gil isn't a huge concern and the only loot I've sold are things like wolf pelts, which I had a grip of and know I can get again if I need them.  Everything else I still have...I'm leery of dumping any of it thinking I may need it later.  Thanks.

(I know I can check a faq, but that's a slippery slope and I may end up relying on it, which is an enjoyment sapper.)

[Cobra951]

If you read some of the older posts, you'll see Que and I engaged in this discussion.  I feel like you do, that looking up answers in FAQs is tantamount to cheating, and a big spoiler.  But his opinion is that the only way you can sell the loot to your best advantage is to look up the proper combinations for the best items to appear in the Bazaar.  I've winged it so far, and have probably missed out on the best stuff because of it.  I've gotten some good items, but the best stuff I've lucked into.  I've found it in pots, or dropped by enemies (or stolen from them).

Edit:  Start reading on the last paragraph of reply #123.  If your page splits are the same as mine, it's the 4th post on this page.

[Quemaqua]

Trust me, this game borrows very heavily from MMOs in the sense that actually doing things tends to be more the challenge.  Trying to get the most out of the game is basically impossible without a guide.  There are lots of things you'd never even know existed otherwise.

[Cobra951]

Yeah, well . . . next 180-hour excursion. 

[Cobra951]

I ran into the end of the game unexpectedly last night.  It was awesome, but the fact that it ended outright is anticlimactic.  No!  I want more!

(click to show/hide)

So I headed to Bahamut, which had been an option for like a week before I finally decided to check it out.  The last thing I had done was to complete the Shadow Seer quest at the Pharos in Ridoranna.  That was hard.  Bahamut almost felt like a pushover by comparison.  I got some great gear at the Pharos which made things easier, in particular a ribbon, which seems to make you immune to all status ailments.  I fought through with Vaan (level 96), Basch (l. 82) and Ashe (l. 78).  It became obvious quickly that the lower-level minions (imperials and robots mostly) were never going to stop coming, so I ended up fleeing through the corridors just to ignore them and figure out where to save the game.  Well, I never did find a save crystal.  I found an elevator, which sent me through to the end.  Gabranth was easy, then Vayne was ridiculously easy, and then came The Undying.  That freaked me out.  It's one of the most impressive-looking bosses I remember.  By this point, I'm used to some bosses becoming immune to absolutely everything, and I use those periods to buff up my party.  I whacked him until the physical immunity, scourged and flared him until the magick immunity, bubbled up and curaja'd repeatedly after that, then whacked him some more after the immunities lapsed.  *Phew*  Didn't have to use summoning or quickening, which I suck at still.

I'm considering a cheating playthrough now.  I have an Action Replay PS2 disc, and I imagine this game has gotten a thorough hack-code hunt.  I'd love to see the whole story retold in a quicker fashion.  It was fascinating.  I normally want FMVs and other cutscenes to end, but I watched all of FF XII's intently.  This looks like a project for a creative soul--to make a complete movie of the game's story using the game, with the minimum amount of gameplay footage required for the whole thing to hold together.

I've completed 40 hunts, and there still remain at least 4 more.  I never did complete at least one other side quest, involving a letter to sisters who work on the sky ferries.  But now that the game is over, with no save which reflects my beating the game, I'm not sure I want to go tackle that now.  Maybe I will.

[Quemaqua]

Actually, some guy already did piece together the whole game via video.  Unfortunately, it's all on his site in shitty quality and can only be streamed (the major FMVs can be downloaded, I think, but not his entire body of work).  I can't remember the name of the place, but you should be able to find it with a little Google work.

[wizall]

If you read some of the older posts, you'll see Que and I engaged in this discussion.  I feel like you do, that looking up answers in FAQs is tantamount to cheating, and a big spoiler.  But his opinion is that the only way you can sell the loot to your best advantage is to look up the proper combinations for the best items to appear in the Bazaar.  I've winged it so far, and have probably missed out on the best stuff because of it.  I've gotten some good items, but the best stuff I've lucked into.  I've found it in pots, or dropped by enemies (or stolen from them).

Edit:  Start reading on the last paragraph of reply #123.  If your page splits are the same as mine, it's the 4th post on this page.

Duh, I'm an asshole.  Thanks.  I actually read through all the posts and there are some good tips here.  I looked through the loot FAQ a bit to get a feel for how it works (12 hours in there's been no instruction and I'm glad I've held onto most of my stuff), but I'll leave off after that until I beat the game the first time.

One other general question:  About when did you guys start in on the peripheral content?  I've tried a few hunts, but the third one in had me toe-to-toe with a MOB I could barely touch.  I've just been playing the main story thus far.

[Quemaqua]

Hunts are sorta'... a mixed bag.  They're ranked, but that doesn't always mean so much as they can be harder or easier sometimes even when rank would indicate they should be otherwise.  If you have trouble with one, just go back to it a bit later.  There are usually enough that if one is too tough you can do another.  And the hunts are generally harder than the regular game stuff, at least beyond a certain point.

[Quemaqua]

So I've bought a lot of useless shit related to this game, which is ironic because I still haven't beaten it even after all this time.  I've been gearing myself up to plunge back in again recently, though, and went looking for some stuff I periodically look for on ebay and the like.

I basically managed to find the full set of 6 mini-figures of the main characters for $12 with a couple bucks shipping.  Awesome.  They usually go for at least $3 or $4 apiece.  I also then managed to find a full lot of 6 promotional posters of the characters that I have wanted for so long now.  I passed them up a long time ago because they were just a bit too expensive, but I regretted it ever since because whenever I'd even see a single one of them, it was crazily priced.  But there's some guy on there now selling them for $35 for the whole lot, with free shipping.  That's a total fucking deal.  He's still got some lots of them for sale, so if you want to grab one, do it while you've got the chance.

So I now have way too much crap for this game.  I've got:

 - The official 4 CD limited edition soundtrack
 - The US strategy guide w/ artbook
 - The JP Ultimania Omega book
 - The Best Buy preorder promo thing that's basically worthless
 - The entire first set of pretty nice quality picture pins Squeenix released barring the "secret" pin
 - A few of the second set of pins which you can't find available to purchase like... anywhere
 - And now of course the figures, and the posters...

And because of this game, I fell in love with Ivalice and picked up FFT:TWotL for PSP, plus FFTA for GBA, which I even managed to snag a guide for.  And FFXII: Revenant Wings, of course (along with the giant guide because I suck ass at RTS games).  I already had Vagrant Story, but this one got me to finally get a guide and make it most of the way through the game (though it stresses me out so bad I still haven't managed to quite finish).  The only reasonable thing I've actually done in relation to any of this shit is actually keep myself from buying FFTA2 until I've beaten FFTA.

I regret nothing.  Actually, I take that back.  I regret the fact that I'm a poor person who has already wasted too much money, yet doesn't have enough to waste 1k or so on the life-size Judge Gabranth resin helmet they made for the game.  I would probably seriously consider selling an organ or two for that.

[gpw11]

You should start a letter writing campaign for a Vagrant Story II.  Mainly because i'm too lazy.

But i've been thinking of getting back into FFXII and maybe even giving the DS spinoff a try.

[Quemaqua]

It isn't bad, actually.  It's a fairly standard RTS game, but it's also got a fun way of bringing out RPG aspects, like letting you do optional battles, get and manage stocks of loot, craft items, that sorta' thing.  It's really pretty enjoyable, and while the story doesn't have particularly dazzling presentation, it seems like it gets somewhat interesting once you get past the fairly long beginning.  It's pretty lighthearted in theme and story, but it's almost reminiscent of the FFTA games that way (especially since it features the same character artist).  It's worth trying.

[Cobra951]

Fabulous game.  I'm not too surprised the conversation about it picks up again a year later.  I never finished the day-long battle with that one big side boss.  Not that I want to now.  Heh.  But I'm feeling a bit nostalgic for Ivalice.  I hope the next FF chapter measures up.