Author Topic: Piracy/Copyright Question  (Read 3482 times)

Offline Schlotzky5

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Piracy/Copyright Question
« on: Monday, March 29, 2010, 11:02:54 AM »
If I buy a broken/scratched disc of a game or of music or something like that, does it give me the right to a backup copy?

ex. I buy a scratched ps1 game on ebay. It doesnt work so I download an emulator/rom and play it anyway.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #1 on: Monday, March 29, 2010, 11:49:26 AM »
I believe that when you buy it, you buy the right to play it. If the medium you originally purchased is not working then any other means is valid.

In my case, I bought The Witcher EE Collector's Edition from Germany and when I was installing it the setup gave me a CRC error, every time. I checked online and apparently a certain batch was botched and would be replaced for the cost of shipping, which would cost about $40 over what I had already paid for the CE. So I resorted to downloading a pirated basic version of the game (pre EE) and the EE patches, then I installed with the legitimate serial key I got with my CE. It worked and I was happy to be able to play. I am still a little miffed about having a damaged CE disc though.

Another situation is with my Dragon Age Origins. I didn't bring my disc along with me to Canada, so I downloaded a copy and installed with my legit key and all is well.

Offline Raisa

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010, 08:51:44 PM »
I think as long as you keep it for personal use and not distribute it you're good.
Taken.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010, 11:57:32 PM »
Morally, I'd say if you buy something at retail, and you lose/damage your CD, are fine with a pirated copy if you activate it with your CD key. Even then, you are becoming part of the pirate system... but yea...

However, if you buy something used, then you know the risks... so it is a bit of a grey area.

A few months ago, I asked Logan Decker on the PC Gamer podcast forums, and he said that while he would do the same thing, legally you aren't allowed to do any of these things. In fact, (and this was my actual question to him), you legally can't crack the cd-check on your legitimately acquired game.

Xessive, what you did with The Witcher is what I've had to do twice now.

The problem you faced was due to manufacturing, while I faced the issue because of shipping.

The Orange Box came to me with the CD broken, so I just used the key on steam to download the games.

Mass Effect 1 was lost in the mail, but fortunately I had asked the sellers to send me the cd key via e-mail before shipping, so I bought a pirated copy locally, and then used the key with that.


Offline gpw11

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 12:59:02 AM »
See the bold at the end of the post for a short answer.

Looked this up a while ago out of curiosity....it's convoluted but I'll explain to the best of my knowledge. Some of this is is from the internet, some from school...all kinda blurry so it could be wrong.

Simply put, it varies from country to country, although I believe that in the the United States it is no longer legal to do so....sort of.  Traditionally in North America, first-sale doctrine basically gave you free reign do do whatever you wanted with your property as long as you didn't directly violate the copyright holder's rights. This means you can lend the CD out to a friend, give it away,even play it in your own home when having a party...and if a guest wants to buy your copy off you, you can sell it!  first-sale, however, did have one little catch....it didn't give you a right to make any copies. That is, after all, exactly what owning a copyright was all about. Now, I don't know if first-sale explicitly stated that copies couldn't be made or if it just didn't cover it and common law kind of decided it that way.  I really have no idea as when I studied first-sale, it was in completely different context.

Fair use is also involved, but it is also really convoluted and there's a lot of misinformation out there, but it basically says that there are certain things that limit copyrights. Generally, it usually depends on profit-motivation, societal benefit, market impact, and some other stuff. So, if you're a teacher writing an exam, you can use a quote from Watership Down in a question without fear of being sued.  As far as I know, fair use isn't a hard set of rules, but rather based on a common law set of principles and judicial discretion.  Fair use was cited in the famous lawsuit where it was deemed legal to record television shows for private use.

Through a combination of these two base principles of consumer protectionism in copyright law there was a period where yes, you were completely entitled to make copies of pretty much anything you owned as long as you did not distribute them in any way shape or form. You could, of course, still lend your CD out to a buddy, you just couldn't lend it out and still use your backup (I don't think). Generally, first-sale is pretty fucking cut and dry, but fair use is complicated and vague. There's a lot of good arguments for things being fair use and there's been a lot of courts contradicting each other on whether or not they actually are.

So, all gravy eh?  Nope....lobbyists are smart and tricky. The DMCA fucked it up for you guys, and new copy right laws are soon going to fuck it up for us.  I don't know the exact legal reason or the extent of precedent that has been set, but apparently, the DMCA actually made circumventing copy protection a crime.  So, regardless of whether or not you're entitled to have a backup of your property, if copy protection had to be circumvented in order to make that backup, it's technically illegal.

That leaves a lot of questions.  If you download the copy and don't circumvent the protection yourself, are you still responsible? Does the DMCA make the actual backups themselves illegal or just the process of making them?  I'm sure someone knows answers, but I don't.

The DMCA is bullshit, but not as bad as how they try to get around first-sale by throwing around "licences" instead of actual goods.  


It depends what you're copying and you'd probably have to go to court to actually find out in any specific instance.....or at least hire a lawyer.  


You are, however justifying in doing what you said, so go ahead. 

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 09:02:44 AM »
Even shorter answer in two parts.

The first rule is: whoever has the power makes the rules.

If you care about morality, do what you know is right, regardless of laws.  Laws seldom separate right from wrong.  More often, they separate the haves from the have-nots.  And laws without enforcement are merely suggestions.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 09:39:55 AM »
Software companies want it both ways. They want to sell you a single disc as property and if you lose/damage it then tough shit buy another. But at the same time they say what you're really buying a license to use the software, so in reality the physical product is just a delivery mechanism.

So going by that then it shouldn't matter where the software comes from, since your license permits you to play it. Download and play on, thats what I would do.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 10:57:17 AM »
Don't software companies replace CDs/DVDs for nominal fees? That's what it says on the back of most of my game manuals.

And any EA game you buy these days, you can use the CD key to download the game from EA downloader. At least that's how it worked with Burnout Paradise for me.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 11:38:23 AM »
Games come with manuals? :P

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 11:48:53 AM »
Well sometimes you have to print them. :P

Offline Schlotzky5

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 04:46:51 PM »
So if I decide that its cheaper to buy used cds and burn them then to buy them through itunes, that probably isnt a legal problem, right? What if I decide that its even cheaper to buy scratched CDs and download the music? Its all the same music. The difference here from my original example is that PS1 games had copy protection and most CDs don't.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/88782/rip-a-remix-manifesto

This is a great documentary about music. It basically says that yes, piracy is illegal, but the system is BS so fuck it. They bring up that the company that published Mark Twain was only able to do so because they got rich off of pirating English books. Disney made shitloads from pirating stuff then made the laws protecting their IP.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Piracy/Copyright Question
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 07:10:49 PM »
Even shorter answer in two parts.

The first rule is: whoever has the power makes the rules.

If you care about morality, do what you know is right, regardless of laws. 

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.   I do not, however, buy CDs.  I just blatantly steal them because I'm a prick like that.

Software companies want it both ways. They want to sell you a single disc as property and if you lose/damage it then tough shit buy another. But at the same time they say what you're really buying a license to use the software, so in reality the physical product is just a delivery mechanism.

So going by that then it shouldn't matter where the software comes from, since your license permits you to play it. Download and play on, thats what I would do.

The really fucked up part is that they use the license argument to try to get out of first-sale and fair-use.  Basically, they claim they're not selling the CD but the license, and as such, they make the terms.  Violate the license, you break the copyright agreement without the whole pesky issue of having to actually violate copyright law. That's where courts are really undecided; just because you call something a licence instead of a good doesn't make it so.  A lot like whether an employee is an employee or a contractor.