Topic: BluRay DRM strikes Avatar

[idolminds]

Oh fun.

An unusual glitch has angered some "Avatar" Blu-ray owners. For these unlucky people, since the disc won't play on their Blu-ray players, their new "Avatar" Blu-ray serves no real purpose other than to sit idly on the coffee table.

"When 3 out of 3 players in my house (Denon, Samsung and PC) won't play it, then 20th Century Fox should be slapped with losses on this one," said one irritated customer.

In reality, the disc works fine; the problem stems from the Blu-ray players themselves. In order to run optimally, the firmware for these fancy Blu-ray machines needs to be updated regularly via a download from the Web. ("Firmware" is the program that controls the performance of an electronic device, which would be, in this case, the playback of a Blu-ray disc.)

So how many people do you think know that you have to hook your BluRay player up to the internet for firmware updates (or to find manual updates if they exist) just to keep watching movies? I mean, you buy a BluRay player then I expect it to play BluRay movies. All of them, past and future, without me having to do anything other than buy the movies.

Progress.

[scottws]

I totally agree.  Also, this is crazy they expect everyone either to wire up some CAT5e or CAT6 to their Blu-Ray player or disconnect it and connect it to their network.

[Cobra951]

Fortunately, the Bluray encryption has been cracked, and people can download the BR movie.  As usual pirates don't suffer.  Only paying customers get screwed by DRM.

[iPPi]

The blu ray disc specifically states that you may need to update your firmware in order to play the movie.  In addition, this is not the first movie where there has been a firmware update requirement. 

[Pugnate]

PS3 imho

[W7RE]

PS3 imho

That's what I was thinking. If I had a PS2, it would be connected 100% of the time like my Xbox 360, so would always be up to date.

[Cobra951]

The blu ray disc specifically states that you may need to update your firmware in order to play the movie.  In addition, this is not the first movie where there has been a firmware update requirement. 

Then it should be on the disc, and the format should require an autoupdate tool in the default firmware.  People shouldn't be forced to have their media players online.  Sorry, but that's crap.

[iPPi]

Firmware is customized for each piece of hardware though.  They can't include firmware for each and every manufacturer's blu-ray player.  Obviously it is a slight inconvenience to have to update your player.

[Cobra951]

Slight?  When's the last time you had to tether a standalone appliance to the mothership to make use of it?  And what is this required update anyway?  If it's DRM, then it has to be standard, no?  How else is it going to work across the board.  And if it's DRM, it had no effect whatever on piracy.  Avatar BR copies and rips are everywhere on the torrent sites.

[gpw11]

Firmware is customized for each piece of hardware though.  They can't include firmware for each and every manufacturer's blu-ray player.  Obviously it is a slight inconvenience to have to update your player.

Yeah, honestly, it's a stupid system and could be a huge bitch in the right circumstances.

[Ghandi]

PS3 imho

Yeah, this is the exact reason why the PS3 is the best blu-ray player.

[iPPi]

Then learn to read the fucking manual or don't bother with the latest technology.  Firmware updates are commonplace especially considering the format is still getting updated.

And there are reasons why the PS3 is still the best blu-ray player... the fact that it can so easily connect to the internet is one of them.

[idolminds]

Thats easy for us to say because we generally keep up with this stuff. I know my mom would be completely clueless if this happened to her. I'm sure there are LOTS more like her.

[iPPi]

Keep in mind that you don't have to connect your player to the internet.  You could also contact customer support and they will likely mail you a CD-ROM containing the update, or you could download and burn the update yourself.  There are methods for those who aren't inclined to actually connect their player to the internet.  I know I had to do that for a DVD player I bought about 8 years ago since there was firmware to make it region free.

Regardless, the reason why this is news is because Avatar is the best selling blu-ray and therefore has a lot of people trying to watch it, in which there is a small (though larger than normal) group of people who can't play it because their firmware is out of date.  This has happened with many, many movies already and is actually quite commonplace if you follow the blu-ray format at all.

[sirean_syan]

Honestly. Do you think someone who's not going to bother connecting their player to the internet will think to contact the manufacturer for an update disk? I think you over estimate how many people out there don't know and really don't care. If they just want to watch movies, there's no reason for them to care.

[idolminds]

Keep in mind that you don't have to connect your player to the internet.  You could also contact customer support and they will likely mail you a CD-ROM containing the update, or you could download and burn the update yourself.  There are methods for those who aren't inclined to actually connect their player to the internet. 

And which of those do you think my mom would either A) know to do or B) not be pissed about? Basically people are just going to think the disc is defective and return it.

Yes, I read this isn't new for BluRays. But honestly this is the first I've ever heard of it. Its stupid any way you slice it. Why is the format not finalized to the point where you don't need firmware updates just to play new movies? Its retarded. And this is the format that "won" the battle for HD video? Fuck, we have to put up with this shit until the next format...which could be a while.

[ren]

If I was Best Buy I'd have copies of the newest firmware for all the blu-ray players, give them away for free when there's an update and call it good customer service.

[Cobra951]

And which of those do you think my mom would either A) know to do or B) not be pissed about? Basically people are just going to think the disc is defective and return it.

Yes, I read this isn't new for BluRays. But honestly this is the first I've ever heard of it. Its stupid any way you slice it. Why is the format not finalized to the point where you don't need firmware updates just to play new movies? Its retarded. And this is the format that "won" the battle for HD video? Fuck, we have to put up with this shit until the next format...which could be a while.

And don't forget that the format "won" through the power of big-buck shenanigans.

[iPPi]

And which of those do you think my mom would either A) know to do or B) not be pissed about? Basically people are just going to think the disc is defective and return it.

Yes, I read this isn't new for BluRays. But honestly this is the first I've ever heard of it. Its stupid any way you slice it. Why is the format not finalized to the point where you don't need firmware updates just to play new movies? Its retarded. And this is the format that "won" the battle for HD video? Fuck, we have to put up with this shit until the next format...which could be a while.

Blu-ray won because Sony paid like $500 million to 20th Century Fox so that Fox would support their format exclusively... and they represent something like 47% of the home video market share.  Either way, if HD-DVD won the format war it would be the same.  Both formats' players' had firmware updates.

Yes, I agree it does suck and it inconveniences people.  But in this day and age you should really do proper research and investigation to make an informed purchase.  If you don't then you can get screwed by the corporations (such as in this case).  If you make an informed purchase than these problems could very well be nonexistent.  For example, my parents are not very much into tech either, so they just avoid this stuff anyway -- if they are interested in getting tech related stuff they always ask me first. 

[gpw11]

Then learn to read the fucking manual or don't bother with the latest technology.  Firmware updates are commonplace especially considering the format is still getting updated.

And there are reasons why the PS3 is still the best blu-ray player... the fact that it can so easily connect to the internet is one of them.

Updated, maybe...but it's also a completely passive appliance, non-programmable, and the blu-ray standard has been finalized for years now. Upgrading your DVD player or router's firmware to provide added functionality above that of the standard is one thing, being forced to upgrade a static appliance in order to utilize the base functionality after a standard has been set is another all together. The fact that the firmware is manufacturer (and likely model) dependant is just a nightmare waiting to happen.

Obviously there are benefits to this; the format is constantly evolving so you and I get more bells and whistles (or just copyright protection) with the same hardware.  BUT the flip side of that is that the revenue stream of those providing the firmware updates will eventually be directly and negatively affected should they endlessly continue to provide the updates to old hardware; especially in a situation where the system is meant to increase the lifespan of the format. Now, what that should mean is that you just don't get the new bells and whistles, since the standard has already been set....every disk should be able to play with base functionality on a player with the original standard-conforming firmware, providing there isn't a freak hardware fault or an error within that firmware.

See, you missed a part of the why the Avatar story is news.  A very large and reputable manufacturer of Blu-ray players hadn't released the necessary firmware almost a week after the movie was on shelves. So, it wasn't a case of just keeping up with the firmware, it was a case of not being able to play the movie on some players at all. This, of course, begs the question of how long can you expect hardware manufacturers to keep up with firmware updates on old models that are out of production.  It doesn't matter how informed you are when you make your purchase now, you could still be fucked in 5 years. 

The annoyance factor is only part of the equation.  The fact that it's a giant kill switch (intentional or not) that has somehow been legitimized is the real danger here.

It seems the real answer for anyone tech savvy would just be to buy a big ass hard drive and enclosure.
 

[iPPi]

It seems the real answer for anyone tech savvy would just be to buy a big ass hard drive and enclosure. 

That's what I've done. 

Another informed decision you can make is to buy the PS3 instead of any other standalone player.  Seriously.  When I decided to make the jump to blu-ray I considered standalone players but ended up getting the PS3 because it would have infinitely better support and firmware updates than other manufacturer's could provide.  The fact that it can also play games was secondary at the time of purchase.

Also, the format has been finalized but there is still ongoing development to improve it such as high disc capacity and other features.  I know the PS3 has all the updates necessary and will in fact get an update to support 3D Blu-ray.  You won't get that without a new player if you bought a standalone.

And guess what?  My rental copy of Avatar played fine on the PS3.  I plan on buying the special edition in November, but until then...

The point I'm trying to make is that this 'firmware update' and movies not working on certain players isn't a big deal.  If you've followed the HD format at all, these issues have existed since the introduction of HD-DVD and blu-ray.  For example, I know for a fact that Children of Men on HD-DVD had playback issues on the Xbox360 HD-DVD drive.  Perhaps those of us who have been using HD for a while have grown accustomed to it, and those who are just starting to jump onto the HD bandwagon find these issues jarring.

[Pugnate]

I just want to say this. If it is the weekend, and I come home with a movie ready to go with a nice hot dinner, and I sit down with my meal, start the movie, and realize that I have to wait for a period of at least five minutes for any reason (mandatory adverts, or firmware updates), while my meal runs cold, I would be very very upset.

Regarding the firmware updates, I think it is a little unfair to say this is a problem only in Blu-ray because I remember HD-DVD had as many updates back in its day.

What I also find ridiculous is this. Why the hell do we have to jump through hoops to get this done? If movies like Avatar require you to update your firmware, they should have the update files on them. Kinda like when you buy a console or PC game, and it has you run the latest update before letting you continue.

I realize it would be harder with so many blu-ray player manufacturers, but still.

edit:

I also think it is a valid point about not everyone being savvy enough to be able to update their firmware. And I think it is a big inconvenience because this isn't a multipurpose device, so keeping up with the firmware of a device that you are only likely to use for a couple of hours a week at best isn't really fair.

At the same time, I do agree that some leeway should be given for a newly introduced and programmable device. Yes, you don't need to update your fridge when you buy a different brand's loaf of bread, but then again, that's a fridge.

While I don't remember having such problems when DVD players came out, I remember having different types of issues. For example, the first DVD player I bought did this weird thing with some DVDs, where it would constantly switch the black bars (on widescreen movies) to the sides randomly, and sometimes change the picture size and aspect ratio without reason.

edit 2:

In reality, the disc works fine; the problem stems from the Blu-ray players themselves. In order to run optimally, the firmware for these fancy Blu-ray machines needs to be updated regularly via a download from the Web. ("Firmware" is the program that controls the performance of an electronic device, which would be, in this case, the playback of a Blu-ray disc.)

Yea, come on, who the hell connects a movie player to the internet regularly. It is a bit ridiculous.

[scottws]

That's what I've done. 

Another informed decision you can make is to buy the PS3 instead of any other standalone player.  Seriously.  When I decided to make the jump to blu-ray I considered standalone players but ended up getting the PS3 because it would have infinitely better support and firmware updates than other manufacturer's could provide.  The fact that it can also play games was secondary at the time of purchase.

Also, the format has been finalized but there is still ongoing development to improve it such as high disc capacity and other features.  I know the PS3 has all the updates necessary and will in fact get an update to support 3D Blu-ray.  You won't get that without a new player if you bought a standalone.

And guess what?  My rental copy of Avatar played fine on the PS3.  I plan on buying the special edition in November, but until then...

The point I'm trying to make is that this 'firmware update' and movies not working on certain players isn't a big deal.  If you've followed the HD format at all, these issues have existed since the introduction of HD-DVD and blu-ray.  For example, I know for a fact that Children of Men on HD-DVD had playback issues on the Xbox360 HD-DVD drive.  Perhaps those of us who have been using HD for a while have grown accustomed to it, and those who are just starting to jump onto the HD bandwagon find these issues jarring.

I'm sorry, but the way you legitimize this is sickening to me.

[Quemaqua]

Likewise.  Sorry, but that's bullshit.

[iPPi]

I'm not trying to legitimize this practice.  It fucking sucks if your movie doesn't work when you buy it because you need to update your firmware.  But this has literally been happening since the introduction of the HD formats and has been going on for the last four years.  I just find this outburst of rage four years down the road to be a little bit of wasted effort.  This is the trend of the HD format and I highly doubt that it will change any time soon.

There's a thread over here that is actually helpful for people who are looking to resolve their problems with Avatar specifically.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.  Nobody is forcing you to get blu-ray and an HDTV.  SD still holds the majority market share at this time, and it is possible that this is one reason among many why.  Alternatively, the thing is available on the internet as well.

[scottws]

You act like this is common knowledge.  I can tell you that this is the first I've heard of this, and I'm the type of person who actually is interested in technology and actually knows what firmware is.  Before I read this thread today, if I were to go out an buy a Blu-Ray player I wouldn't have hooked it up to the Internet and I would have run into this problem and probably been even madder than I am now.

I can see how a long-time owner of a Blu-Ray player might be accustomed or at the very least aware of the need to update the appliance, but how would someone know that this is a common practice for the format when they haven't bothered paying attention to it for whatever reasons (cost, prior disinterest, etc.)?

[Pugnate]

If you don't like it, don't buy it.  Nobody is forcing you to get blu-ray and an HDTV.  SD still holds the majority market share at this time, and it is possible that this is one reason among many why.  Alternatively, the thing is available on the internet as well.

I'd agree with you if there was a precedent set with previous such devices, or if it were a more complex platform. If someone was bitchin' about minor PC gaming related stuff like patching, or having to install games on a harddrive (not talking about major stuff like DRM etc obviously), I would say something similar to If you don't like it, don't buy it....

But really, this is just people watching a movie. You shouldn't be required to know how to regularly update your blu-ray player to simply watch a movie in HD. It is a mass market consumer device, not a niche product like a PC game.

[iPPi]

You act like this is common knowledge.  I can tell you that this is the first I've heard of this, and I'm the type of person who actually is interested in technology and actually knows what firmware is.  Before I read this thread today, if I were to go out an buy a Blu-Ray player I wouldn't have hooked it up to the Internet and I would have run into this problem and probably been even madder than I am now.

I can see how a long-time owner of a Blu-Ray player might be accustomed or at the very least aware of the need to update the appliance, but how would someone know that this is a common practice for the format when they haven't bothered paying attention to it for whatever reasons (cost, prior disinterest, etc.)?

I can understand your point of view.  When I saw this thread my stance was, 'Really?  This isn't news.'  To me it was akin to someone posting that it was going to rain in Vancouver or something.  It's commonplace.  When you go to here and here, the major blu-ray sites, it isn't mentioned at all in the news feed, but is talked about in the forums.

[Cobra951]

If I don't like it, don't buy it?  OK.  You got it.  I think standard DVDs on progressive players look peachy on a 42" screen from 8 ft away.  Sandy is curious about Bluray, and now I have one more reason to talk her out of it.  There's nothing better than the promise of technical difficulties to scare normal consumers away from needless gadgets.

[iPPi]

The difference between SD and HD is like night and day, but that's another conversation.

[scottws]

This is in response to IPPi's post:

Do you thing the average consumer frequents Blu-Ray websites, much less the forums of such sites?  I highly doubt it.

[Pugnate]

The difference between SD and HD is like night and day, but that's another conversation.

[W7RE]

Google Chrome is telling me this thread contains information from site: cut-etc.ru, which it says may contain malware. I can't visit this thread without clicking a little "I understand" thing and pressing "proceed".

[scottws]

Interesting, I'm not having the same experience, though I am using Chrome on a Mac at the moment.

[Xessive]

Google Chrome is telling me this thread contains information from site: cut-etc.ru, which it says may contain malware. I can't visit this thread without clicking a little "I understand" thing and pressing "proceed".

The Ruskies are at it again!

[sirean_syan]

I wonder if it might be related to my avatar and signature. Last night I noticed that they weren't showing up, so I figured the server might be down or something. Today I tried connecting directly to the server and was able to see the files, but when I tried to look at an individual image or file I would get an attack warning through Firefox.  If you try to ignore the warning it goes to a one of those bad pages that puts a pop up with a button telling you to install a malware program while the main window looks like a file browsers with a scan going. So, I guess something has latched onto my server and now redirects to bad stuff. In response, Firefox and probably Chrome such down the link before anything happens.

I have no idea how to fix this and not much desire to actually fix immediately. So, I removed the links to my avatar and sig and will be going commando for a bit.

Alright. Keep bashing BluRay while iPPi defends it. Sorry to derail the thread.

[Pugnate]

Google Chrome is telling me this thread contains information from site: cut-etc.ru, which it says may contain malware. I can't visit this thread without clicking a little "I understand" thing and pressing "proceed".

Yea I use Chrome on my laptop and was getting the same message,

[W7RE]

I really wish I had the money to go out and buy a PS3 just so I could play BluRays. I'm sick of using DVD when I know there's something better out there. I've decided I'll wait on a player and just get a PS3 though, and dropping $300 is a much tougher decision to make.

[scottws]

Don't PS3's have fans?  I remember I used the PS2 as my first DVD player and the fan noise annoyed the shit out of me.

[Cobra951]

Most people aren't going to buy a game console to play movie discs.  That only makes sense to gamers.

I know what HD looks like.  I see it every day.  I stand by what I said about DVDs playing on a good progressive player (through component inputs) looking just fine.  Better is always desirable, but not at the cost of a prod up my asshole.