Topic: BluRay DRM strikes Avatar

[Quemaqua]

What he said.

[iPPi]

Don't PS3's have fans?  I remember I used the PS2 as my first DVD player and the fan noise annoyed the shit out of me.

The PS3 fan is very quiet (don't know about the Slim though, I have the fat one).  In fact, my home theatre receiver's fan is louder than my PS3 fan.  The Xbox360 fan is really loud though, comparatively speaking.

This is an assumption, but if you made the jump to HD, I would guess you would have a home theatre sound system as well, so you won't hear the fan at all... because don't forget, with HD video comes HD audio (DTS-MA, Dolby TrueHD, and LPCM).  Hell, even normal DTS and Dolby Digital sound great in most home environments.  Though, I have not been able to tell the difference between HD audio and SD audio and as a result, I still use SD audio.

I'll be perfectly honest.  I don't actually buy a lot of blu-ray movies at all.  In fact, I think my total collection of HD-DVD and blu-ray combined is something like 20 movies total, and Band of Brothers on blu-ray.  It's been almost a year since I've purchased a blu-ray movie (instead I bought a 1TB external HDD).  However, I fully support the HD format and the home theatre experience because I don't go to the movie theatres -- I think the last movie I saw in theatres was Terminator Salvation.  I enjoy watching movies in the comfort of my own home and as a result, I want the best experience possible, which at this point in time is blu-ray.

[Pugnate]

So I wanted to revisit this thread. After I got my plasma, I started stacking up on blu-rays. So far, I have about ten in the past month, including Avatar (which I haven't seen yet).

Out of the ten I have purchased so far (thank you eBay for the great deals), seven of them (incl. Avatar), as soon as you open, have white inserts, with large black text printed, clearly telling you that you may need to do a firmware update.

It is definitely still a big frustration, and the older crowd just isn't tech savy, but along with the fact that your TV screen tells you that you may need a firmware update, I don't understand how people were confused as to why their Avatar movies weren't playing.

[gpw11]

If I remember correctly the big deal was that the movie was released before some of the firmware updates for certain players, even those  that were released recently.  So, you may have an insert telling you that you need an update but there isn't one to be had. Apart from the immediate question about when people with these players get to play their dics, it leads to the question of how long your hardware is viable before manufacutrers decide they don't want to use the resources neccesary to update old players. Afterall, their purpose is to sell NEW  hardware.

[Pugnate]

I didn't realize that. If that's the case, then that's pretty terrible. I can see why people were ticked.

As for manufacturers not taking the time to update players just to sell new hardware is something I just don't see happening, because it doesn't seem logical to me. The ramifications are too heavy, and it isn't like they have a new product at hand. A blu-ray player is a blu-ray player.

[scottws]

As for manufacturers not taking the time to update players just to sell new hardware is something I just don't see happening, because it doesn't seem logical to me. The ramifications are too heavy, and it isn't like they have a new product at hand. A blu-ray player is a blu-ray player.

I think he means newer models of Blu-Ray players.  It's not like Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, etc. will release one model of Blu-Ray player and ride it out for the life of Blu-Ray.

I totally see what gpw is saying happening.  I remember iRiver promised firmware updates that would enable Ogg Vorbis support.  Well, they only released the updates worldwide on their newer models.  They also updated some of the older models, but only in certain regions.  My iMP-350 was only updated for Korea, for instance.

[Pugnate]

Yea I got what he meant. My point was that whether they be newer or older models, they are still single purpose devices with essentially the same hardware, and if the lack of firmware support renders them obsolete, then they are useless.

I don't see a big company risking a PR nightmare by letting their older models be little more than expensive automatic cup holders, just so that they can have their newer models look more enticing. Because these devices are expensive, companies probably don't want a dent in their rep. like that. Let's say I had a Philips blu-ray player, and one day found that my $250 device was no longer able to play the latest movies, I'd most definitely be buying my next such device from the competition -- of which, there is plenty of.

I also am not sure if there is a fundamental difference between newer and older blu-ray players. I am sure the newer models are loaded with extras, but they are all serving the same basic function.

What happened with your iRiver sucks, but OGG support is still an extra for mp3 players. If the iRiver suddenly needed an update to play mp3s, I am sure you'd have it.

The other thing is lifespan. Things like mp3 players, laptops, operating systems, gaming consoles, cellphones all have various expected lifespans  based mostly on advancements in technology.

Something like a blu-ray player from 2006 is still expected to provide the same function as a blu-ray device from 2010.

edit:

I think he means newer models of Blu-Ray players.  It's not like Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, etc. will release one model of Blu-Ray player and ride it out for the life of Blu-Ray.

Unless we are talking about something like Blu-ray 2, that's exactly what I expect to see happen. I mean it is an enhancement... it isn't exactly a new model.

[Cobra951]

If I don't like it, don't buy it?  OK.  You got it.  I think standard DVDs on progressive players look peachy on a 42" screen from 8 ft away.  Sandy is curious about Bluray, and now I have one more reason to talk her out of it.  There's nothing better than the promise of technical difficulties to scare normal consumers away from needless gadgets.

The debate was beaten to death already.  I'll just add that the above is now reality.  Sandy told me very recently that she wanted to get Bluray, and I used the discussion here to talk her out of it.  This is the first consumer movie format in history that can shut you out of your movie purchases until you appease it.  I really don't understand why anyone is surprised about the backlash.

Hey, my NES still works.   

[scottws]

Unless we are talking about something like Blu-ray 2, that's exactly what I expect to see happen. I mean it is an enhancement... it isn't exactly a new model.

You would be wrong.  These manufacturers already have multiple models of Blu-Ray players.  See this page:  http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Blu-ray-DVD-Players/Blu-ray-Players/abcat0102003.c?id=abcat0102003.  Within seconds I saw two Sonys and two Panasonics.  And these won't be the last models of Blu-Ray players Sony and Panasonic release.

I want to think that all these companies will keep their players updated.  But all we can do is hope.  This is really the first time I can think of that this sort of thing is going on (regular, required software updates for an appliance).  It remains to be seen.

And yeah, I hear you about the Ogg Vorbis thing.  It's not the de facto standard and wasn't required to play newer MP3s or something like that so it isn't exactly the same, but the company still promised to release firmware that would support it and they did not live up to their obligation to do so.

[Xessive]

I still think the PS3 is the most viable Blu-Ray player available. It just makes the most sense and the best bang for your buck. The only major argument I see is since it's primarily a gaming console it's not what my parents would ever consider if they thought they needed a Blu-Ray player.

[scottws]

I hear that the PS3's fan is quiet, but for me in a home theater setting I would want a fanless Blu-Ray player.  That's what always annoyed me way back when my PS2 was my DVD player.

[Pugnate]

You would be wrong.  These manufacturers already have multiple models of Blu-Ray players.  See this page:  http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Blu-ray-DVD-Players/Blu-ray-Players/abcat0102003.c?id=abcat0102003.  Within seconds I saw two Sonys and two Panasonics.  And these won't be the last models of Blu-Ray players Sony and Panasonic release.

That link isn't working for me, but I am guessing it has a ton of blu-ray player models.

I am not saying they aren't released as new models on paper. I am saying that I don't consider them to be new, at least technically, and at least in context of the point I was making,

(click to show/hide)

(which wasn't the definition of a newer model, but whether the newer models have changed enough to justify an abandonment of older iterations)

because blu-ray player technology hasn't changed fundamentally in a way that makes performance significantly different on a basic level, from one "model" to the next.

Sure, they are packaged and released as new models, but that's to be expected. Products are refreshed and repackaged all the time. The 360 slim for example. But most of the changes are cosmetic, and in terms of extras.

If we get down to the language of it, yes, they are definitely called newer models, but they are just enhancements and refinements, and aren't new to a point where they offer newer basic capability, or that older models should lose company support with any justification. While we can refer to the 360 slim as the newer model, I won't expect MS to suddenly ditch support for the 360 fat. But I still find it logical that the first Xbox was abandoned after the Xbox 360's launch, because the 360 was a completely new product.

I want to think that all these companies will keep their players updated.  But all we can do is hope.  This is really the first time I can think of that this sort of thing is going on (regular, required software updates for an appliance).  It remains to be seen.

Yea I can't disagree with this. You are right, it is the first time an appliance of this sort has found itself in so many consumer homes, so who knows, maybe support will be abandoned, but I'd be surprised, though I guess more so, disappointed.

[beo]

you honestly believe a ten year old player that hasn't been manufactured or sold for eight years will still get firmware updates? what if the company that makes the device ceases trading or completely backs out of the home entertainment market?

[Pugnate]

lol No shit. If the company ceases trading or completely backs out, then obviously there will be no more firmware updates, no matter what company policy. I am just talking about bigger companies like Samsung, Panasonic etc. As long as they make blu-ray players, I don't doubt that they will support all their models, at least for a very very long time.

After my last post yesterday I did check on Google.

On the CNET forums, Samsung and Panasonic official representatives provide technical support on the forums.

From what I have seen, there were a lot of complaints. Apparently all the firmware updates so far for the older models, have come, but have only been enough to aid the functionality of playing the latest movies. Some of these updates have come months late, but they have come, even for first generation players (we are currently on the 8th gen.).

Support for extra stuff like Netflix etc hasn't come and has left people ticked.

[Pugnate]

OK Samsung is currently on their 7th gen blu-ray device.

Their first gen player, Samsung BD-P1000, got them a lot of bad press and PR apparently because of a lack of firmware support a few years ago.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/310

It looks like since then they've promised regular firmware updates for even their first gen devices:

http://drivers.softpedia.com/downloadTag/Samsung+BD-P1000+Firmware+update
 
Anyway, it seems that if you want to watch blu-ray movies, you really have to do research before you buy. Some of these devices cost over $300 and are just trash.