Topic: HDTV

[Pugnate]

Birthday is coming, so am thinking of treating myself to a new HDTV that is between 44 and 50 inches.

I currently own a 32'' Samsung, which I bought for $1500 (it was a long time back, and duties etc. took it to that much)

Prices seem to have seen a massive drop since then.

Any advice?

I am leaning towards Samsung, because they seem to make the best TVs, but if there is a cheaper almost as good option, I wouldn't mind it.

I remember people here being a fan of Vizio.

I see that newer LCDs are coming with LED backlighting, which is apparently a significant improvement, but the question is if there is a price premium involved, and how much, and whether it is worth it.

The other thing is refresh rates. TVs seem to be coming with 120Hz and 240Hz refresh rates. Any advantages, disadvantages?

The only thing I want to be careful with is the panel. My current HDTV is an 8 bit panel, and I noticed 10 bit panels being the norm now. Again, it seems 10 bit panels offer a huge improvement.

[beo]

i did quite a bit of research before buying and ended up getting an LG. they're very reasonably priced for the quality and i'm happy with mine. as far as the Hz thing, i personally find watching stuff outside of the native refresh rate looks really peculiar. my dad has a 100hz (pal region) screen and i'm not a fan of the effect at all.

[Xessive]

Yeah, the 100Hz rate makes everything looks like it was filmed on an old home video camera. I get that it is a faster rate, which is supposed to be "better" but it's way too distracting.

I've always been a fan of Samsung screens and lately I've been impressed by LG and Panasonic as well. Sony has some decent quality stuff if you can afford it; Sony is often the most expensive for no reason other than the brand name.

[ren]

Check out avsforum for whatever model you're looking at, they usually have tons of good info.

We got a Samsung 42" 720p plasma last boxing day and are plenty happy with it.

[Pugnate]

OK thanks guys. I will definitely do more research on the refresh rate. I didn't realize it created a handicap.

[scottws]

i did quite a bit of research before buying and ended up getting an LG. they're very reasonably priced for the quality and i'm happy with mine. as far as the Hz thing, i personally find watching stuff outside of the native refresh rate looks really peculiar. my dad has a 100hz (pal region) screen and i'm not a fan of the effect at all.

Well, 120 = 60 x 2 and 240 = 120 x 2 or 60 x 4.  It's not some higher - but not doubled - rate like 100 Hz.  Most TVs are 120 Hz now with some being 240 Hz.  This is fine because they are nice multiples of 60 that keep the frames synced up properly.

[Cobra951]

42 inches and up, there is no replacement for 1080p plasma.  None.  I don't care what anyone else tells you.

Trust me.

Having said that, I highly recommend Panasonic Viera, this year's or last year's.

Edit:  The longer I live with Sandy's 2 small Vizio's (19" & 23"), the less I like them.  They are good for the price, and not great beyond that.

Edit 2:  The "Lite Brite" arrangement of LEDs behind LCDs is an amusing brute-force attempt to give you the contrast and black level that plasmas and CRTs give you by default.  I'd be shocked if there wasn't a big price premium involved, considering the complexity of the hardware and software required for such a system to work properly.  Beware of cheap TVs (like Vizios) that advertise themselves as LED TVs.  The LED backlights are simple sidelights that work through a rear diffuser.  These obviously don't provide the local dimming you would expect from full grid of LEDs.

[beo]

Well, 120 = 60 x 2 and 240 = 120 x 2 or 60 x 4.  It's not some higher - but not doubled - rate like 100 Hz.  Most TVs are 120 Hz now with some being 240 Hz.  This is fine because they are nice multiples of 60 that keep the frames synced up properly.

pal region, so multiples of 50hz here. still looks strange.

[Pugnate]

Cobra, with the plasmas, don't you have the regular screen burn stuff to worry about? I know it has gotten better, but Cnet says it still isn't perfect.

I am not on a massive budget either, and I imagine plasmas are more expensive.

Regarding the refresh thing...

Now that you guys mention it... I have noticed something off about my cousin's TV. Whenever we play Xbox 360 games on it, everything looks really off. Can't put my finger on it, but there is this weird blurry thing going on. Could that be it?

I am considering taking my PS3 to the HDTV store to try out some Blu-Ray before committing.

[Cobra951]

For long use as computer displays, LCDs are still best, due to image retention and the possibility of burn-in with plasma.  Yes, they have gotten better about this, but it is still a possible problem.  Image retention goes away with further use.  Burn-in does not.  There are features on plasmas now which will do some sort of cycling on pixels to minimize the danger.

I suppose if you intend to use your PS3 (for games) on the new screen, it should be a consideration.  For best video, plasma is a slam-dunk once screens get big enough to allow full 1080p native res.  For small screens, you need the denser packing of LCDs to give you full HDTV res.

[Pugnate]

Yup, this will be for gaming. Is there a problem if you aren't gaming on the native rez on a plasma?

I know PC games look like crap on certain LCD monitors if they aren't played at the native rez.

Something else I am not quite sure about console games. I realize you can set the resolution in the console settings, but games still say whether they are running at full HD or 768p on the back of the box. From what I have seen, most games are running at 768p.

Will an LCD TV have any problems running at a lower HD rez, or no?

I suspect that as long as it is the same aspect ratio, it is all native to the HD?

I will definitely check out the Plasma TVs as well. See how they match up on full HD. Thanks Cobra.

As for burn in, CNET says that it happens after secessions of four hours or so on modern day Plasmas. I am very good to take care of my electronics. I wouldn't mind turning off my Plasma every few hours to be honest. I'd rather have the superior picture.

edit:

A great read:

http://www.cnet.com.au/plasma-vs-lcd-which-is-right-for-you-240036500.htm

edit 2:

Some interesting points made:

Is there a difference in picture quality between plasma and LCD screens and normal CRT TVs?

It's not what's happening behind the screen that's important — it's how the screen performs as a television that matters the most. In that regard, both plasma and LCD sets produce excellent pictures, although some home entertainment specialists and gamers still say CRTs produce the best overall images (although the latest plasmas are particularly good, and LCD sets are quickly catching up in terms of quality with advances like LED backlighting).

LCD pundits point to the belief that LCDs have a longer lifespan than plasma screens. This may have been true of earlier plasma models, which would lose half of their brightness after more than 20,000 hours of viewing. However, many plasmas available on the market today quote a lifespan of about 60,000 hours, which is the same as LCD. This means they will last for almost seven years if left on 24 hours a day.

Last year, LCD finally caught up to the quality of plasma with the introduction of LED backlighting. Instead of lighting the screen with fluorescent tubes, as is traditional, it uses banks of LED lights. There are two types of LED lighting: direct and edge. Direct backlighting is arguably better because manufacturers are able to turn sections of the screen lighting off — meaning higher contrast. Edge-lighting is as it sounds, using a series of LEDs along the edge of the screen. The light is then spread evenly across the screen using a series of mirrors. Most thin LCDs arriving on the market use this method. Look out for more LED-backlit screens this year, but be aware they are NOT a new category of screen, and not to be confused with OLED.

You might have also heard that plasmas suffer from screen burn-in, an affliction not commonly associated with LCDs. Screen burn in occurs when an image is left too long on a screen, resulting in a ghost of that image "burned in". Newer plasmas are less susceptible to this thanks to improved technology and features such as screensavers, but burn-in can still be a problem. However, after a few days most burnt-in images will fade — they are no longer permanent.

Just some tidbits, but the entire article is worth a read really.

[Cobra951]

That's a decent article.  It touches on all the important details.  It's pulling its punches, though, as most publications tend to do.  For example, LCDs cannot touch the perfection of CRT and plasma viewing angles.  LCDs have improved to be sure, but they are fighting to minimize a problem which is natively a non-issue on the other two technologies.  In a living room where you have furniture in an arc around a screen, this is more than simply academic.

Edit:

Will an LCD TV have any problems running at a lower HD rez, or no?

I suspect that as long as it is the same aspect ratio, it is all native to the HD?

Unlike CRTs, fixed-pixel displays can only change resolution by invoking some scaling software.  How good scaled displays look depends entirely on the quality of this software.  720p broadcasts look outstanding on the 1080p Panasonic Viera in Sandy's living room.  So do DVDs played on a progressive player through component cables.  (We just watched Avatar last night.)  That's 720x480 progressive (not to be confused with 720p, which is 1280x720).  There's no substitute for checking out the sources you'll be using on the TVs you're considering.

[Pugnate]

Yea I don't disagree regarding them holding back though. I've noticed a few articles from them over the years simply ignoring the more hardcore issues.

Still, it was informative and a great read for someone clueless.

Viewing angles are definitely a concern. I will judge the two technologies side by side before making the decision. Of course, it has to fit into my budget first.

[Cools!]

A plasma is awesome.

My dad got a Pioneer Elite 52" plasma sometime back and it's damn sweet.

[shock]

I bought a 42" Samsung 1080p LCD TV from my neighbor for $400.  It's about 8 months old.  It's wonderful.  I use it for my PC monitor and to watch TV/movies.  This combined with Netflix/Hulu/etc is great.

[PyroMenace]

So I think I'm going to buy my Dad a new TV for his birthday/father's day after I get paid, and I think I was going to go for a 46 inch plasma. I was looking at one on Amazon and theres a Samsung thats selling for $500 which sounds great.

[PyroMenace]

I'm thinking I may settle for a 720p plasma since theres not a lot stations that take advantage of 1080p, plus the price range is much more friendly. I've never actually looked at TVs side by side to notice the difference between 720p and 1080p, I wonder how significant it is.

[Cobra951]

You may see the screen door effect on a 720p more easily than on a 1080p of the same size.  Get fairly close to the TV screen you're thinking of buying (while it's showing something) before doing so.

[Pugnate]

I'm thinking I may settle for a 720p plasma since theres not a lot stations that take advantage of 1080p, plus the price range is much more friendly. I've never actually looked at TVs side by side to notice the difference between 720p and 1080p, I wonder how significant it is.

It is a pretty big difference. It is the difference in resolution between 1300x768 and 1920x1080. I connect my 360 to my full HD monitor from my "HD ready LCD TV" when I want the 360 to to the internet, and the difference is quite quite significant.

My advice is you see things side by side first. I'd suggest you take your 360 with its HDMI cable to the shop. They will surely connect it for you. Even the dashboard looks supremely sharper on full HD. And the bigger you go, the more apparent the difference will feel.

It also depends on what you are buying your HDTV for. If it is for TV and DVDs, then 720p will suffice. If you want to game and watch blurays, full HD is pretty significant.

If you do take your 360 to the store, remember to take the games that run at full HD. You'll find the info on the back of the box.

edit:

Sorry, I just realized the TV isn't for you, but for your dad.

I doubt games would make a difference to him. Still, you can take a 360 to see for yourself what the difference looks like.

[PyroMenace]

Yea I already have my own TV, though its not here with me in TX, won't be until we move into a house. We do have a handful of bluerays, though I'm still pretty sure I'm going to go for 720p. I doubt my dad would tell the difference plus he really wouldnt care anyway, I mean unless I find an awesome deal on a 1080p plasma of the size Im going for, the 720s are right in my price range.

[Pugnate]

I have been to the stores many times, and have browsed the avs forums many times. I have nine days to go, and shit, I still can't decide.

Plasmas do seem to have the best picture quality and viewing angles, but are very power hungry, and seem more fragile in case of voltage drops (which do happen here). They are cheaper than LCDs, but not when you are talking full HD.

Screen burn in seems to be a thing of the past though. Hardcore gamers seem to be enjoying their plasmas, but image retention is still an issue. Apparently it goes away after 10 to 20 minutes, but that seems to annoy a lot of plasma owners.

Overall they do still come off as more fragile and less efficient. Is there a point to the better picture quality, when you have to worry about things like:

Screen break in. Even the best Plasmas are recommended to be kept at not more than 45% contrast for the first 100 hours.

An average 42 inch plasma will consume 450w power. Higher end plasmas consume nearly 700w. Absolutely ridiculous.

So far the only full HD plasma I can find here in my price range, is some LG PQ plasma, and I've never had a good experience with LG products. Plus, there are a lot of nightmare reports on the avs forums about LG plasmas. Apparently the LG LCDs are good though.

The other choice are the LED lit LCDs, but they come with their own issues:

a) The 120hz and the 240hz issue is very real. As you guys said, a lot of movies etc don't look right.

b) LED LCDs that are light from the side of the panel have the worst image quality, so you have to be careful there.

b) While picture quality etc has improved to be on part with plasmas, LED LCDs have still not resolved the viewing angles.

c) They are as expensive as fuck. Almost 50% more here than a regular LCD.

So far, I am leaning towards a plasma, as long as I can find a decently priced Panasonic that is full HD. Let's see. Otherwise I may just go for a good ole' LCD. LED LCDs are just too expensive for what they are offering.

[Pugnate]

Here is the Plasma I am considering, provided I can find it here close to the international price:

http://www.panasonic.co.in/web/pid/8121/Spec

[Cobra951]

Very nice.  I love the Panasonic plasmas.  That 600 Hz sub-field drive may be what made motion on the Winter Olympics coverage look so smooth?  As I understand it, it strobes pixels 10 times per field, with 60 fields per second normally.  The idea is to minimize motion artifacts.

[Pugnate]

Yea the 450w thing is a bit of a concern, especially how expensive electricity is here, but yea I'll manage.

The TV is about $1000 in the US and 750 pounds in the UK, but on one local website has it for 140,000 PKR (about $1500).

I am hoping that it is some error, because that is an outrageous difference.

[Pugnate]

Damnit!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462105-1.html?tag=mncol;txt

I read about this on AVS and now CNET is reporting this as well, and have downgraded all the Plasma reviews from Panaonic by 1 star.

All of their 2008 and 2009 review plasmas are apparently suffering from this problem.

I may be back on the LCD camp.

edit:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462551-1.html

A class action lawsuit against Panasonic was filed February 12, claiming an increase in the brightness of black levels, as well as a corresponding decrease in contrast ratio that is detrimental to picture quality.

edit:

Cobra, I'd say it would be pointless to mention this to Sandy. Ignorance is bliss, and I'd just not want to know heh.

[Pugnate]

For those who are interested, I picked up the Panasonic full HD plasma 42 inch TV, and boy, am I glad I did. I've done a lot of research, and even today, plasmas come with a lot of baggage... but I already had an LCD so I thought plasma was the way to go.

Anyway, I am thankful to Cobra for insisting that I check out Plasma, as I am sure I wouldn't have.

Some things I have noticed...

 The picture looks fantastic, and so realistic. The colors, especially the blacks, are great. The best thing is the detail you can see in the colors. It is hard to describe, but I watched the first half of the Spain vs Portugal tie on the Samsung LCD, and the second half on the plasma, and while the Samsung LCD excels at a high contrast and colorful picture, the plasma excels at making things look spectacular in a realistic way.

I also noticed the plasma seems to do a better job of upscaling SD images than LCDs.

Anyway, thanks again to Cobra for pointing me in the plasma direction.

[Cobra951]

You're welcome!    I'm glad you like it so well.  That looks like a fancier cousin of what I get to see so often.  I hope it lives a long life free of that pesky age-related problem you mentioned before. 

[Pugnate]

I think I have a problem.

I was watching the world cup match, when I noticed a gray rectangular shadowy bar across the bottom! It is still there when I change channels... wtf! I didn't even watch anything which would do that. And I have the brightness and contrast at nearly zero!

[Pugnate]

I can't believe this is happening. There are like a dozen black lines at the base of the screen. Shit.

[Cobra951]

Oh no!  Shit is right.  Sorry to hear that.

[Pugnate]

Yea it is 3 in the morning here. I will call them when they open, but I am so fucking depressed about this.

There is another issue. When I connect my 360 or PS3 at 1080p, the screen starts flickering like mad!

[Quemaqua]

Sucks man.  But still... plasma is the right choice.  There's no comparison to LCD, IMO.  Plasma wins by far.

[Ghandi]

Do you have a warranty on it?

[Pugnate]

Yup, I bought it from the Panasonic showroom. I called them up and they said it wasn't a problem, and a brand new replacement should be here in an hour. I am still feeling a touch uneasy, because I don't want the same thing to happen to this replacement down the line, but I do have a 30 month warranty.

And yea, Plasma is just incredible, really. I still think a good Samsung LCD produces gorgeous pictures, but you still feel like you are looking at a TV. With plasma, it is like looking through a window.

I told my mother about what happened, and she suggested I get my money back and get another, yet bigger LCD, but my reaction was that I still want a plasma... just a good, functioning one.

I've done a lot of research, and plasmas are more prone to problems, and need more care etc, but I feel are completely worth it, especially if you own a LCD TV already.

Again, I appreciate Cobra's voice on this. It is the only reason I went and checked them out, and really, fell in love instantly. I saw it, and knew I wanted one.

The screen they have on display at the Panasonic showroom is a gigantic plasma TV, which was priced at $60,000 US.

Yes, you read that right. 60 thousand buckeroos.

And it was absolutely stunning. I didn't realize a picture could look that good. It looked far better than anything I've ever seen at a cinema (though I haven't been to IMAX).

Anyway, if you guys choose to go for plasma, keep in mind that they are more sensitive, and need to broken in gradually for the first 100 hours, and aren't going to work as smoothly with every device you have. But you can minimize the risk by buying from a reputable source and having excellent warranty terms.

Also, they aren't as good for the environment, which is something I feel a bit guilty about.

[Quemaqua]

Panasonic plasmas are great, that's what I have and I swear by it.  I did a good deal of looking when I first got an HDTV and the choice became clear to me after a little research and checking out stores.  Panasonic is a brand I trust.

[Pugnate]

Thankfully Plasma delivered a brand new replacement just now!

The flickering problem still exists. The TV does 1080p off of bluray players just fine, but refuses to do 1080p off of the 360 or the PS3 without flickering like mad.

I checked and it is a firmware issue, and the latest updates fix the problem. Unfortunately I have found the 42G10R updates for Europe, UK, and even India, but not for the region my plasma belongs to, region R.

I am not sure why this is a P42G10R(Iran) and not P42G10I (India), as typically products come in from India and not Iran. Going to Panasonic again, and hopefully they have a fix.

Que, what plasma did you get?

Did you go through the break in ritual?

edit:

Yes, I can live with 720p, but it pisses me off because I paid extra to get a 1080p TV for gaming.

The 720p plasmas were $700 cheaper, and there was a 720p plasma which was 48 inches and the same price as mine. Basically I opted for a significantly smaller size for the higher rez, so yea that's why it is annoying, and that's all.

edit:

As for breaking it in, I've set the contrast and brightness to near zero, and push color down to 10. Now I have switched on to the cartoon network, and have zoomed out just enough to get the static logo out of the way.

I am not sure if I am being too extreme though.

edit:

Wow, the Panasonic Iran website looks prehistoric:

http://www.panasonic-iran.com/EN/html/products.htm

[Quemaqua]

Honestly, I forget the model.  Sy might remember, he has the same one.  Been real good to me, though.  The only thing I don't like is it has no headphone jack.  Beyond that, I like everything about it.

[scottws]

Panasonic plasmas are great, that's what I have and I swear by it.  I did a good deal of looking when I first got an HDTV and the choice became clear to me after a little research and checking out stores.  Panasonic is a brand I trust.

I'm with you on that.  Panasonic makes good stuff.  I choose them when they have a solid item in a product line I'm looking at.

The good thing is that they don't really have that Sony or Samsung or Toshiba name to them, so they aren't marked up as badly.

[Pugnate]

There is no doubt that in terms of hardware, and hardware support they are top of the line. They make great quality products.

But in terms of software, and compatibility, they are definitely behind Sony and Samsung. So far this full HD stuff is frustrating.

[Pugnate]

Terrible news.

The TV they sent as a replacement turned out to be a display piece they had had for the past four months. I noticed a scratch on the body and then realized all the side plastic covering had already been removed.

Turned out they didn't have any replacements in stock, and basically lied to me about sending a boxed brand new replacement.

While the replacement itself was good, it hadn't been "broken in" and had basically been running on full contrast and color on "showroom display" settings.

Later the salesman admitted that his boss had pressured him into sending me that piece because they got a 25% discount from the company on any display piece sold. Yes, I paid nearly $2000 for a 4 month old display piece, that ran at least an hour every day on the backup generator. (Running an LCD or a plasma on a generator is not a good thing because of voltage irregularities.)

Fuck, it really really pisses me off.

This is the only Panasonic dealership in this province... so yea.

They gave me back my money, but the whole experience was shitty.

And this doesn't reflect badly on how Panasonic does business, but rather how shady the business practices are in this part of the world.

I wish there was something I could do... someone I could report these guys to. If you guys have any ideas, let me know.

The worst of it is that plasma has really spoiled me. After the full refund, I went and looked at some large new LCDs and while they looked really cool, they just don't look natural like plasma.