Topic: Valve starts microtransactions for TF2

[Cobra951]

I think you're not getting the other view, which is that hordes of people with too much money and too little sense are screwing up gaming for everyone else by validating a ripoff business model.

[K-man]

I think you're not getting the other view, which is that hordes of people with too much money and too little sense are screwing up gaming for everyone else by validating a ripoff business model.

I agree, but they're still buying it.  Which means companies officially don't give a flying fuck whether or not anyone feels like it's a ripoff.  Which makes it really not worth arguing about.

[MysterD]

On the other hand, we have Bioware setting up planned DLC for Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2, the latter having significant DLC that may carry consequences into Mass Effect 3 (Lair of the Shadow Broker). I'm not against them preparing certain content for the downloadable format but I do take issue with the significance of the content on the game as a whole as well as any effects on successive titles. Regarding ME2, I would have been delighted if they never released any of the DLC and instead made an expansion pack which included all the DLC and extra missions in one lovely package and sell it at the market standard expansion price ($20~$30).

See, that's the problem, Xessive - the Vanilla retail version owners usually need to buy the entire re-release box (Vanilla game + all DLC) to basically get all of the DLC. When all the DLC is done with, they often don't create just a Retail Box w/ ONLY ALL of the DLC content to be sold at retail. Given how well games like DAO and ME2 sold, it seems silly to NOT sell a ALL DLC Content Box - even if they release it in say a very limited quantity.

I'd be very happy to get a ALL DLC Only retail box for ME2 and DAO - sold say at expansion pack pricing ($20-30). For Elder Scrolls IV, when BethSoft did release The KOTN Expansion Pack Retail Box (included All DLC + KOTN), I was a VERY happy customer - b/c I now had a way to get all Oblivion-related content. I would be really happy if say FO3 or Borderlands had at some later date an ALL DLC Box - but, I do doubt that is going to happen...


EDIT #1:

The funny thing is DLC makes me want to not buy a game right away, just because it seems like a year later they come out with a "GOTY Edition" with all the DLC included for less than the cost of the original game alone.

Agreed.
It's as if Vanilla game-owners basically have become Beta-testers - but are insteed paying money to play Beta (in-a-box).


EDIT #2:

I think you're not getting the other view, which is that hordes of people with too much money and too little sense are screwing up gaming for everyone else by validating a ripoff business model.

Agreed.

[Cobra951]

I agree, but they're still buying it.  Which means companies officially don't give a flying fuck whether or not anyone feels like it's a ripoff.  Which makes it really not worth arguing about.

It's not meant to be an argument, K-man.  Call it a lament, if you want.  With all the suckers out there at the helm, I weep for the future of gaming.  You're right; debate is moot.

[K-man]

I think DLC can be a great thing.  Fallout 3 for example.  It sucks that companies are essentially milking it, but what do you do?  We vote with our dollar, but if it's a game I wholeheartedly enjoy odds are I'm going to break down and get the extra content.

[MysterD]

I think DLC can be a great thing.  Fallout 3 for example.  It sucks that companies are essentially milking it, but what do you do?

Eventually, down the line, we have to just buy the GOTY Edition/Ultimate Edition/Enhanced Edition/Whatever they name the Re-Released Edition that comes w/ Vanilla game + All Extra Content (DLC + Expansions), whenever the price feels right to us. We have no choice.

For example, I am waiting for Borderlands: GOTY, Fallout 3: GOTY, DAO: GOTY, and probably some other games to majorly price-drop - just so I can get all the DLC content that I'm missing. I ain't paying in-full for it, since I already bought Vanilla Game.

i.e.
For Borderlands, I'm only missing DLC #3 and #4 - since they ain't been released on disc.
I already own Borderlands + DLC Double Pack (DLC 1 and 2 - Dr. Ned and Moxxi) from retail.

For DAO, I'm missing every DLC from Warden's Keep (DLC#3) to the final DLC (Witch Hunt).
I own already DAO + Awakening expansion.

For FO3, I'm missing every single DLC released (DLC #'s 1-5).
For ME2, I'm missing every NON-Cerebus Network DLC.

[Cobra951]

I think DLC can be a great thing.  Fallout 3 for example.  It sucks that companies are essentially milking it, but what do you do?  We vote with our dollar, but if it's a game I wholeheartedly enjoy odds are I'm going to break down and get the extra content.

That's a perfect example of Idol's thought (and now MysterD's).  There's a game I got after kinks were ironed out and all the DLC was included.  So I guess now we have to wait a year before we can buy games, if we expect completeness?  I still weep.

[MysterD]

That's a perfect example of Idol's thought (and now MysterD's).  There's a game I got after kinks were ironed out and all the DLC was included.  So I guess now we have to wait a year before we can buy games, if we expect completeness?  I still weep.

That's the problem, Cobra - they don't give much of an option to Vanilla owners. They often just don't sell a straight-up ALL DLC Only Retail Box at expansion pack pricing ($20-40), after they've finally finished doing all the DLC. I'd have no problem w/ shelling out extra money to get an ALL DLC Only Retail Box at expansion pricing - as I could at least STILL be able to get the DLC content I'm missing on a retail disc.

Also, they might say package some DLC's together at retail, but eventually, for some reason, they might stop. (Maybe DLC boxes didn't sell as well at expected? I don't know). So, something wind's up missing - and in the end, Vanilla owners wind-up stuck somewhere in limbo, for some time.

I.e. Fallout 3
I own FO3: Collector's Ed for PC - which is FO3: Vanilla basically. Bought it day of release. So, I have NO DLC.

There's two FO3 double-packs on retail.
Double Pack 1 is Anchorage (DLC 1) + The Pitt (DLC 2);
Double Pack 2 is Broken Steel (DLC 3) + Point Lookout (DLC 4).

If I went out and bought both of the FO3 DLC Double Packs (DLC's 1-4) on retail disc, I'd still be missing Mothership Zeta (DLC #5) - BTW, Newegg and Amazon does sell them double-packs quite cheap for PC. Mothership Zeta actually never got a disc release - I'd have to go through G4WL to get Zeta, basically.

Hell, I'd be better off probably waiting for FO3: GOTY to drop in price, if I want ALL the DLC content.

[K-man]

That's a perfect example of Idol's thought (and now MysterD's).  There's a game I got after kinks were ironed out and all the DLC was included.  So I guess now we have to wait a year before we can buy games, if we expect completeness?  I still weep.

You know that's been happening for years right?  They called them expansion packs.

And you have every right to wait until the complete edition is released, or you can just buy it as you go.  You pay more that way, but obviously you get access to the content sooner.  I don't regret a penny of the money I spent on Fallout 3.

Edit:  In fact I can't believe anyone's even bitching about DLC like Fallout 3's.  What, we're going to bitch about companies when they give us extra content that wouldn't have seen the light of day if not for DLC?  Just for the sake of a "complete" game?

Seriously guys.

[MysterD]

You know that's been happening for years right?  They called them expansion packs.

And you have every right to wait until the complete edition is released, or you can just buy it as you go.  You pay more that way, but obviously you get access to the content sooner.  I don't regret a penny of the money I spent on Fallout 3.

Well, you kinda can't always buy as you go at Retail on some games for Expansion packs/DLC Package boxes - b/c some DLC's for some games do NOT wind-up on retail disc.

If you bought a Vanilla version and/or maybe bought some DLC Retail Box Packages, you might still, eventually, have to buy the re-release w/ everything,.

I.e.
Fallout 3 never got Mothership Zeta (DLC 5) on disc.

Some of the NWN Premium DLC's never got a disc release (Pirates of the Sword Coast, Infinite Dungeons, Wyvern Crown of Cormyr).

NWN2: Mysteries of Westgate (DLC) never got a disc release.

Borderlands has not had Knoxx (DLC 3) nor Claptrap Robot Revolution (DLC 4) on disc...YET. Doesn't mean will or won't - we don't know yet.
 
Mass Effect 1 never had Pinnacle Station (DLC 2) released on disc.

Mass Effect 2 has NO DLC on disc currently - Who knows if it will or won't.
Same goes for DAO - no DLC on disc currently.

[MysterD]

Edit:  In fact I can't believe anyone's even bitching about DLC like Fallout 3's.  What, we're going to bitch about companies when they give us extra content that wouldn't have seen the light of day if not for DLC?  Just for the sake of a "complete" game?

Seriously guys.

That's not my point. They often don't release a retail box w/ ONLY ALL DLC, at a later said date - that's my point, for Vanilla Retail Owners. Instead, they just sell often at retail a Re-Release Box w/ everything, instead.

Vanilla owners get left in limbo here, basically - especially when companies release a box or two w/ some DLC, but don't finish things off - there's still missing DLC's not released at all on disc.
(See my above post, Reply #49).

Seriously...why didn't Mothership Zeta (DLC 5) get a disc release?  The other 4 DLC's wound-up on disc.

EDIT:
In the old days, before DLC - I didn't have to worry about going after a GOTY Edition, Gold Edition,  Platinum Edition, Ultimate Edition, or whatever they wanna call the final edition that contained everything. If I bought Vanilla game + Expansions as I went along and as they came out on disc, I still had a chance at owning everything offered in the Final Edition with everything on disc.

I.e. I bought all of Elder Scrolls 3's content as they went along on disc - Morrowind (Vanilla), Tribunal (Expansion 1), and Bloodmoon (Expansion 2). When the GOTY Edition came out - oh, that's right, I already had it all, so it wasn't even on my radar.

Same cannot be said about many games today - See above post, Reply 49.

[idolminds]

I'm not complaining about DLC like FO3 or Borderlands. Stuff thats pretty meaty and only $10. Stuff like "Buy a hat for $5" or "$3 for a new costume" are just pitiful. Fighting games are really bad about it. You used to just unlock characters and costumes, now you pay for them.

FO3 and Borderlands and the like work because they are much closer to the "expansion" model of new content. They give you a good chunk of game for the money. But the nickle and dime shit has got to go.

Of course we could also add in preorder bonuses, collectors editions with exclusive content, retailer specific bonuses...theres a lot of bullshit the game industry is doing now.

[PyroMenace]

That's not my point. They often don't release a retail box w/ ONLY ALL DLC, at a later said date - that's my point, for Vanilla Retail Owners. Instead, they just sell often at retail a Re-Release Box w/ everything, instead.

Vanilla owners get left in limbo here, basically - especially when companies release a box or two w/ some DLC, but don't finish things off - there's still missing DLC's not released at all on disc.
(See my above post, Reply #49).

Seriously...why didn't Mothership Zeta (DLC 5) get a disc release?  The other 4 DLC's wound-up on disc.

EDIT:
In the old days, before DLC - I didn't have to worry about going after a GOTY Edition, Gold Edition,  Platinum Edition, Ultimate Edition, or whatever they wanna call the final edition that contained everything. If I bought Vanilla game + Expansions as I went along and as they came out on disc, I still had a chance at owning everything offered in the Final Edition with everything on disc.

I.e. I bought all of Elder Scrolls 3's content as they went along on disc - Morrowind (Vanilla), Tribunal (Expansion 1), and Bloodmoon (Expansion 2). When the GOTY Edition came out - oh, that's right, I already had it all, so it wasn't even on my radar.

Same cannot be said about many games today - See above post, Reply 49.

Hey grandpa, what else happened in those days of PC games? I head that pterodactyls were infamous for stealing PC games from everyone!

[MysterD]

Agreed @ Idol's post on Reply 51.

EDIT:
My complaints about FO3 and Borderlands are not the size and price of the expansions - I think they're priced fairly. My complains w/ those two - and some other games I listed in Reply 49 - are at the way they started releasing some of the DLC on disc - and then suddenly, they stopped releasing some DLC on disc, so something wound-up missing in the mix...

[gpw11]

If they really want to get people excited about TF, why don't they do a BIG TF2 expansion pack w/ a good amount of maps, new weapons, and new items? Valve has already done good to the community by updating the life out of TF2 (over 150 times); and adding new content for free here and there - I'm sure they'd buy a $30 expansion willingly.

I really hate what micro-transactions and DLC have done and are doing to gaming. It's screwing it all up in so many ways, I don't know where to begin.

Or better yet - here's an idea: why doesn't Valve just do a TF3?

.....TF2 probably has more free developer added content to it than any other commercial mainstream game out there. New maps?  Check. New Weapons?  Check.  New items?  Check.  New game modes?  Check.  Free?  Check. The $30 expansion you want has pretty much been delivered free, albeit sporadically. There's really nothing to complain about there.

As to a TF3?  Really?  You're complaining that optional micro transactions are  a cash in and you're saying a better option would be to take a very popular/populated and updated game and kill the user base by releasing an unnecessary sequel would be less of a cash in?  You're basically creating the inverse of the situation which got people rightfully up in arms about L4D.

I get where (most) people are coming from here, and agree to an extent, but in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't affect the majority of the players in the game in a negative way at all.  All the new money-only items are cosmetic only, much like the previously existing pre-order and promotional items which have been around for at least a year.  If you want to go into the game and grind away for a sandwich, you can still do so.  If you want a sandwich without grinding, you now have that option as well. 

It's an illegitimate slippery slope to argue that this will be the downfall of TF2 or gaming as a whole. To decry the existence of DLC as a whole, regardless of it's implementation is no less of a fallacy than those who would blindly defend the actions of those who put it in place.

[idolminds]

One item thats a little iffy in the TF2 update: crates. These drop randomly, they hold a random item including stuff that can't be bought, dropped, or crafted. You can only open them with a key and you can only get keys by paying $2.50 for one. Thing is...you have no idea what is in the crate. You could be paying $2.50 for a common item you already have. Its basically gambling.

[gpw11]

Haha, that's just retarded.

[W7RE]

One item thats a little iffy in the TF2 update: crates. These drop randomly, they hold a random item including stuff that can't be bought, dropped, or crafted. You can only open them with a key and you can only get keys by paying $2.50 for one. Thing is...you have no idea what is in the crate. You could be paying $2.50 for a common item you already have. Its basically gambling.

HAHA, Allods Online has the same thing. You can buy or find chests that can only be opened with a key from the item store, and you never know what's in it.

[Pugnate]

Hey remember when Valve recently said that they have three surprise announcements coming this year that will shock the world?

Was it my mistake in thinking that we'd like these surprises?

[Cobra951]

Seems that way. 

[gpw11]

Ha, so is this the first one?

[Pugnate]

I wouldn't be surprised if Valve is behind the Panasonic Jungle, and that is the second surprise.

I also remember how Valve hyped their E3 announcement, letting people go crazy with speculation, until it turned out to be all PS3 related.

Anyway, yes, two surprises to go.

I suspect that one has to do with with Episode 3 and an Orange Box 2, or Episode 3 scrapped for Half-Life 3 or something.

[idolminds]

I imagine one of the surprises has to do with the hiring of the DOTA guy, IceFrog. People are speculating that they are working on a DOTA-like game that they will release for free, but sell items and characters in-game (much like League of Legends). This TF2 update is a testbed for that feature so they can work the kinks out.

But, you know, rumors...

[Pugnate]

I haven't played dota is it like plants vs zombies?

[idolminds]

No...theres not really much to compare it to. Basically there is a map with bases at either end, and several lanes leading from one to the other. You control a single hero like an action RPG, Diablo-ish. At set intervals several small enemies (creeps) spawn at each base and automatically walk along the lanes until they meet in the middle and fight each other. This would happen continuously without player intervention.

As a player, you want to help the creeps reach the enemy base. So you go fight the enemy creeps to level yourself up. There are also towers along the lanes you must destroy to get the creeps through (they will stop to fight anything they come across), as well as battle the enemy heroes. As you level up you get new abilities, you earn gold to buy items that make you stronger, etc. Ultimate goal is to destroy the enemy base.

[Pugnate]

I have to play this now.

[idolminds]

Prepare to be yelled at for being a n00b, kicked from every game you join, etc. Extremely hostile community.

Theres DOTA, the WC3 mod, which is free if you have WC3. Theres League of Legends which is made by the original DOTA creators, free to play game. Demigod, which is $6 right now. And Heroes of Newerth which is pretty much an exact clone of DOTA with better graphics, $30.

[Xessive]

DOTA sounds a lot like Demigod.

[idolminds]

Demigod is based on the same style of game. Its kind of a new genre that DOTA started and now others are making games in the genre. If this were the mid-90s we'd call Demigod a DOTA-like.

[Xessive]

Haha I suppose so.

[idolminds]

Hey, at least its not like they are making tons of money off this so we can go back to the way things were...

But with the recent introduction of the game's user-created virtual item marketplace, the Mann Co. Store, the winners' items went on sale to the Team Fortress 2 community -- and a 25 percent revenue share to the modders led to a surprising payoff.

Today, Valve said that community content creators Rob Laro, Shawn Spetch, Steven Skidmore, Spencer Kern and Shaylyn Hamm took home initial royalty payments ranging from $39,000 to $47,000 each from the first round of Team Fortress 2 content creation. And these are just the checks from the first few weeks of operation.

God damnit.

I mean, its good for the modders. They made a ton of money off their skills. But...I don't like where this will lead. Not just in a general gaming sense, but where will this lead the mod scene?

[sirean_syan]

Heh. You've been calling this for what seems like years.

[Pugnate]

OK, that's good for them.

[MysterD]

Valve has no idea why 20-30% of TF2 players spend money on microtransactions.
Makes two of us, Valve...