Author Topic: Helping friends get better  (Read 3309 times)

Offline Cools!

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Helping friends get better
« on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 12:07:51 AM »
A friend of mine recently got me into StarCraft II. He picked it up when it came out and I followed a few months later. When we started playing online he was the better player having a few months head start. Then last month he went away for a month so I started playing more on my own.

Of course when he come back last week I was way ahead of him not just in game mechanics but also strategy. Since then I've tried to share with him my experience so he can catch up. I've tried to be very careful in how I word things so I don't come off as telling him what to do, instead I've tried to point out mistakes and provide possible suggestions.

Anyway, you can probably guess where I'm going with this. We were playing 2v2 earlier tonight and were losing a lot of games. No big deal as long as you learn from the mistakes. But then in the last game he snaps at me and tells me that it's "fucking annoying" that I supposedly tell him what to do all the time. I always tried to suggest rather than flat out tell him what to do. I think it goes without saying that since it's a team game you have to communicate and formulate some sort of strategy. The last thing he told me was that he didn't care at all, I'm guessing, to me trying to be helpful.

So yeah, that's the end of that. I tried to be careful. I tried to offer good advice. If my friend doesn't want to hear it or even communicate during a game, then I might as well just play against random people. I guess what bugs me is that I wasted all the time trying to get him up to speed and then he tells me he doesn't care. Actually not even getting him up to speed, but just actually formulating some sort of a plan beyond "let's attack!".

Anyway, at least it'll mean I'll have more time to play other people now...

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #1 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 12:30:45 AM »
I feel your pain, some partners just don't work out, especially in RTS games. I used to play WC3 a lot, and in team games you have to work together (I haven't played SC2 but I imagine that it's the same). The difference between someone who was willing to see the team strategy and someone who though they could win it alone was astounding, and it happened all the time. There was literally no chance if you were paired with the latter.

I used to play WC3 with Folk (I'm sure some people here remember him, he posted during the AOG days). He was actually a blast to play with. We completely sucked, and lost a ton, but we had fun doing it. We would do ridiculous strategies like rushing with the Night Elf trees. It was always lots of fun, and we tried to refine our absurd strategies.

Just get someone that you have fun with, ideally on par with your skill level. I'm competitive, but I had a blast losing just because it was fun to lose with someone else.

Offline Cools!

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #2 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 12:49:14 AM »
Yeah, if you are having fun that's all that matters. I don't care about the outcome, but if someone tells me they don't care and think I'm annoying for actually trying to formulate some sort of strategy then I'm just wasting time. I didn't force him to do anything, I simply tried to work together. Why are we on Skype if we aren't?

Offline Xessive

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #3 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 01:14:19 AM »
The exact same thing happened to me a couple of weeks back in Company of Heroes except I was the one who snapped! hehe

I should have been more patient given how well I know that my friend is a little rough and can get colourful with his language. Couple that with my natural resistance to authority and you have a volatile combination. But end of the day it's just a game! We had our 5 minutes spat and we were back into formulating a solid strategy. In general, I try to improve my patience and overall tolerance, which either way actually helps me in coming up with strategies! :D

So yeah, make it clear to your friend that you're only trying to help, and if he still takes issue then it's on him to make it right. As I see it, you were trying to be helpful and he was non-receptive to that. It could be the choice of words, but as you stated you were cautious with your wording. Maybe he was having a bad day?

Playing coop is the way to go for me in most games. The best way to keep a team cooperative is to encourage and back each other up, it feels good in reality and that transfers well into games. I know that sounds so cliché but it works, just like in any (or at least most) relationships.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #4 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 01:34:03 AM »
Yeah, you know what the problem is?  You're trying to play SCII MP with two different types of players.  You're trying to "suggest" but what suggestions are there to make?  The entire MP is all about specific build orders and tech investments.  Actual strategy probably doesn't kick in until the highest tiers of competitive players. I don't doubt that you were very diplomatic in your suggestions of "Oh, we're three min into the game...maybe you should have like 6 more units out there gathering resources...and then maybe delete two so you have enough soldiers to guard against the early possibility of a rush, but build some blah blah blah."  but I hope you can understand why he may be like "It's a game.  Shut the fuck up."


Offline iPPi

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #5 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 09:06:35 AM »
I played SC2 with some of my coworkers who were really bad.  When they first started playing, they basically had no strategy down and would actually be useless for the entirety of the game.  I would just tell them what the basic strategy was, and to watch some replays to figure out where the flaws in their build order and their strategy.  They didn't 'snap' (we were coworkers so not really friends), and I was of the mentality that we were just playing for fun.  Winning or losing didn't really matter to me when I was playing with them.

They did improve their game significantly over a period of time.  gpw has the right idea.  Completely different class and type of player.

I think this is why most people do not like playing with, or against me simply because I get too competitive for them.

Offline W7RE

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #6 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 10:36:15 AM »
That's why I don't play RTS for the most part. I never enter an RTS with the idea of getting a good strat down and learning build orders and such. I just want to play a game and relax. I quickly find out that you just can't be casual with RTS, so I give up on the genre altogether.

Offline Cools!

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #7 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 02:25:55 PM »
Yeah, you know what the problem is?  You're trying to play SCII MP with two different types of players.  You're trying to "suggest" but what suggestions are there to make?  The entire MP is all about specific build orders and tech investments.  Actual strategy probably doesn't kick in until the highest tiers of competitive players. I don't doubt that you were very diplomatic in your suggestions of "Oh, we're three min into the game...maybe you should have like 6 more units out there gathering resources...and then maybe delete two so you have enough soldiers to guard against the early possibility of a rush, but build some blah blah blah."  but I hope you can understand why he may be like "It's a game.  Shut the fuck up."



It's not as simple as build orders and tech investments. Having a strategy includes picking the right build orders against the right combination of opponents. My suggestions did include builds, transitions and possibly counters, and it was always focused on how we could win as a team. Build orders can only help you transition into the mid game after which you quickly need to know what you are doing to win, even in the lower leagues.

If you can read what your opponent is doing (a big part of any strategy game), then you need to have a good strategy/build/tactic/whatever to counter and abuse that decision. That's where most of our problems were when we lost because my friend would often just not provide me with the support needed and maybe that's why to him I came off as telling him what to do. At some point it does become frustrating when you try to work together and your team mate just goes off doing random things. Again, it's not about winning or losing but simply playing TOGETHER.

The problem I think is that my friend is still in that experimentation phase where you just want to build x unit and have fun with it and maybe I tried too hard to get him to improve. I love experimenting as much as anyone, but if you aren't cooperating in a team match then that defeats the purpose of playing one. Especially when you have the advantage of being able to talk to each other. He even mentioned at one point last night how he didn't have a "plan" going in. Well then, don't be surprised when you lose to stupid shit.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's feedback. Yeah, maybe I'm playing with the wrong person. It has been frustrating at times when my advice fell on deaf ears (like focusing on building more workers for a strong economy, etc.). I think next time we play, I'll keep the number of games short so nobody gets frustrated and will treat it more like I'm playing with a random person and try to improve my own game even. Or just stop playing 2v2 with him for now till he improves.




Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #8 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 03:07:15 PM »
I remember playing SC2 with this dumbshit. I had like armada's of carriers and a mothership and void rays and he had like 10 marines.. god that guy SUCKED. i think his name was gp---oh shit nvm
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline W7RE

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #9 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 04:36:47 PM »
No joke, one of the last straws for me was the fact that in Warcraft 2, the CPU could beat me on the easiest difficulty. I don't remember if I tried in WC3. I just did like 4-8 way free for alls with you guys, and the only thing that kept me alive for long was the luck of not no one running into me first.

My problem is I hate the base building/resource management. It's boring, so I tend to just build something easy and then run around paying zero attention to my base.

Offline Cools!

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #10 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 04:55:30 PM »
Yeah, I usually don't like heavy base building RTS games. I just love how different the races are in StarCraft. If you get bored of one race you can try a completely different style in the same game.

For example, like most I started with the Terrans but got tired of having to build so many different unit producing buildings so I switched to Zerg where everything is made from one building. A few weeks ago I decided to play Protoss a bit and I love all their special abilities and the different tactics.

Offline W7RE

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #11 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 05:07:09 PM »
Well, I get bored before 1 game is over. I don't want to mess with the shitty workers, or gathering resources, or building the base. That's why I like what little I've played of DoW2 (single player), it's zero building and all killing. I know, I sound like I've got ADD, but I don't care. Building a base is boring to me.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #12 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 07:21:53 PM »
I remember playing SC2 with this dumbshit. I had like armada's of carriers and a mothership and void rays and he had like 10 marines.. god that guy SUCKED. i think his name was gp---oh shit nvm


Haha, forgot about that.  I was the iceburg that sank your ship.


One of the reasons I don't touch mp rts.  I just don't find it enjoyable and thus don't put the time in to learn it.


Knife fights in sewers are way more fun.

Offline shock

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #13 on: Sunday, April 03, 2011, 08:04:51 PM »
Some people "get it" in these types of games and some don't.  I'm the latter, and despite all of my efforts to learn the game, think on my feet, etc, I inevitably fail.  I don't think there is anything that can bring me (or your friend) to the other side.

Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #14 on: Monday, April 04, 2011, 01:49:41 PM »
Man this thread reminds me of some epic matches between all of us

1. I remember a FFA with Sy, Shock, scott, Ghandi and maybe someone else. Shock attacked me with those wolf riders and became to destroy my base. I wouldnt go down without a fight though so I retreated a bunch of peons to the back of my base and began building towers while he was destroying my buildings. Suddenly, he breaks off his attack and retreats. I begin the slow process of rebuilding but i had to march my peons across the map to get to a gold mine. it took too long and Sy eventually found and killed me.

2. A team game in WC3. I remember Ghandi and someone else on my side and pugnate and sy and someone on the other. we were being defeated slowly and our resources were gone. We holed up in my base which was protected by many towers. we only had a few guys left including like 1 hero, a gryphon rider and some spider dudes. sy and pugnate bypassed my towers by using ballistas to knock down trees near the back of my base then came in and killed us.

3. Another huge team game and i remember sy, scott, pugnate and a few others. I think it was a 4vs4. I remember no real activity in the game so i took my troops towards the middle of the map. There i encountered someone and we began a skirmish. But soon all my teammates came to my aid and everyone on the other team came and what started as a skirmish became a giant battle. I lost everyone in my army except my blademaster. I remember the other team was down a man due to a disconnect but i remember sy using necromancers in a narrow pass and continually reanimating skellies to keep us at bay.

4. A huge FFA that had Ghandi, Sy, Shock, me and some i dont remember. I sat back at my base and built a badass army of taurens. I was left unmolested but i foolishly did not scout. I remember walking out into the map and seeing chaos as bases were burning and it seemed sy was in control. I attacked him and easily overran what ground troops he had and set to work killing off his base. but he had 2 wyvern riders and i had no air defense so he whittled me down until he won.

5. an epic Dawn of War game with sy, myself, que and i think idol in a FFA. The goal of the game was to be in control of relics when time ran out so like king of the hill. I was attacked by sy and i was ready to concede defeat when all of a sudden he retreats. I didn't see him again for the remainder of the game but it turned out that que had almost completely wiped him off and he was only able to build basic troops from then on. Near the end of the game came the epic battle between me and Que. We threw everything we had at each other and i think he would have won except I dropped a timely orbital bombardment on top of him that sealed the deal.
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #15 on: Monday, April 04, 2011, 02:03:38 PM »
I remember when we all played Jedi Outcast and I murdered all of you.

Offline K-man

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #16 on: Monday, April 04, 2011, 02:44:01 PM »
I had to endure something similar last night when I was playing Borderlands with two friends.  I took advantage of a Gamestop sale and bought us all copies of the GOTY edition.

I was having to direct them through the menu system and help them along to figure things out.  the setup isn't at all complicated, so I don't get the confusion.  Slightly annoying but we got through it...


Offline W7RE

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Re: Helping friends get better
« Reply #17 on: Monday, April 04, 2011, 03:13:21 PM »
I had to endure something similar last night when I was playing Borderlands with two friends.  I took advantage of a Gamestop sale and bought us all copies of the GOTY edition.

I was having to direct them through the menu system and help them along to figure things out.  the setup isn't at all complicated, so I don't get the confusion.  Slightly annoying but we got through it...



I game with a few people regularly who I would consider "dudebros". They play whatever MMO they're on this month, some CoD and maybe Battlefield, and very little else. Any other game I show them is "trash", and if they actually do try something else, it takes them forever to just understand the menu system and the game structure. It took me a while the other day to explain the concept of a server browser and what Gamespy is. Then they leave early almost every night do play beer pong and do jagerbombs, sometimes coming back at around 2am and wanting me to entertain them while they're drunk. At this point I tell them I'm going to be, and I play Minecraft or something for a couple hours before sleep.

Oh, and they're terrible at anything other than CoD and WoW and MMOs that copy it well enough. One of them is even terrible at CoD. Also, none of them knows the meaning of the word "teamwork". "Let's play CoD" really means "lets' get into the same game and run around randomly nowhere near eachother."