Topic: Zelda Reviewed.

[iPPi]

IGN - 9.5
Gamespot - 8.8

Gamespot says that the Wii specific elements feel tacked on... which is not surprising since the game was originally intended for the Gamecube.

[sirean_syan]

Queue the fanboys, I bet this is going to get nasty at Gamespot.

Heh. I started watching the video review and immediately had an interesting thought because it immediately reminded me of Okami and Shadow of the Colossus. That's interesting because both were obviouslly inspired a lot by Zelda, but now it looks like it's sorta ripping those two off. I know that's not the case (I hope), but I imagine I'm not the only one thinking that.

Edit: Gamespot's review seems pretty honest and it's the sort of thing I like about the site when it comes to stuff like this. I really actually wish there was an option to just play the game with a normal controller if I hated the Wiimote. You know? Which reminds me, did the Cube version actually get canceled?

[Pugnate]

I am not surprised they feel 'tacked on' because they were tacked on.

[idolminds]

Cube version is still on track.

[iPPi]

I'm actually kinda tempted to get the Cube version instead of the Wii version now.  Except... the Wii version is in 480p and 16:9. (but it kinda costs $300)

[PyroMenace]

The only thing I disagreed with was his disappointment with no full voice over support in this one and his comment that games now have no excuse to use text anymore. I'm like... umm, plenty of games still use text as it still barely hinders gameplay progression in the slightest you lazy-to-read fucker.

[sirean_syan]

Yeah. They didn't knock Okami too hard for it.

[MysterD]

Full voice over is NOT important to me. It's nice and all -- but is it really necessary? When done right, yeah -- it's great. For example, look at Vampire: Bloodlines.

I'll take Over NO VOICE SUPPORT the following: when the MAIN characters and MAIN QUEST parts of the game get FULL VOICE SUPPORT -- you know, like NWN does. And those voices should be UNIQUE actors, too. We don't need 10 characters being played by one actor, unless that actor really is good at doing different voice types; and not making it noticeable, either.

[scottws]

Rising Dead had text that you couldn't even see on a non-HDTV and it still got pretty decent reviews.  Shadow of the Colossus was text (though there was like a god talking in a foreign language).  Why is it a complaint now all of a sudden?  Shouldn't they be holding similar games to similar standards?

Honestly, my respect for Gamespot just eroded a little.

[MysterD]

Rising Dead had text that you couldn't even see on a non-HDTV and it still got pretty decent reviews.

Dead Rising, you mean???

Yuh -- I think that's an issue; and I still think that needs to be fixed.

Shadow of the Colossus was text (though there was like a god talking in a foreign language).  Why is it a complaint now all of a sudden?  Shouldn't they be holding similar games to similar standards?

I don't think no full audio is a big deal, myself.

I prefer "some" audio, if that "some" audio is going to be great and unique.

I don't think games need full audio -- especially if they ain't going to do it right or they gonna have 100 NPC's speak w/ the same obvious 10 voice actors like say Gothic 2.

Honestly, my respect for Gamespot just eroded a little.

I dunno, but a 8.8 is a great score from GameSpot. *shrug*

It got a higher score than Dead Rising did; DR got a 8.4 from G-Spot.

[ScaryTooth]

Gamespot is the only review I've seen so far that has gave the game a less than stellar review. Jeff may have dropped the ball. We'll see.

[idolminds]

I still like the Okami/Animal Crossing style gibberish audio with text to read. Full voice is nice but I wouldn't dock points if a game didn't have it.

[MysterD]

I still like the Okami/Animal Crossing style gibberish audio with text to read.

I have no problem w/ that for speech, either.

Full voice is nice but I wouldn't dock points if a game didn't have it.

Agreed.

I'd start docking if they put in voice acting....and um, the voice acting flat out SUCKS. There goes to audio score....

[Quemaqua]

Honestly, I'd consider it a plus.  It would feel completely and utterly wrong to have full speech in a Zelda game.  Maybe that's just me.  And did Gerstmann review it?  Because honestly, as much as I enjoy his contributions to GSpot (and I do, I think he's an entertaining guy), he often docks games for some really lame shit.  While I was skeptical at first whether or not his review of Loco Roco was really underscored like Cobra suggested, I have played the game quite a bit and think he was totally off base.  The game deserved mid to high 8s at the least.  And he's made some other judgments that I thought were pretty faulty.  Not all the time, just more often than some of the other reviewers.  Kas, for instance, I almost never disagree with.

[sirean_syan]

So it's decided? They should just clone Kasavin and have him run everything?

[Quemaqua]

Or just implant the heads of the clones into the other writers to keep them on track.

 ... and oh God I just got a horrible vision of Gerstmann with Kas's head sticking out of his cut.  I'm scared.

[MysterD]

Honestly, I'd consider it a plus.  It would feel completely and utterly wrong to have full speech in a Zelda game.  Maybe that's just me.  And did Gerstmann review it?  Because honestly, as much as I enjoy his contributions to GSpot (and I do, I think he's an entertaining guy), he often docks games for some really lame shit.  While I was skeptical at first whether or not his review of Loco Roco was really underscored like Cobra suggested, I have played the game quite a bit and think he was totally off base.  The game deserved mid to high 8s at the least.  And he's made some other judgments that I thought were pretty faulty.  Not all the time, just more often than some of the other reviewers.

Gertsmann reviewed Zelda: TW.

Kas, for instance, I almost never disagree with.

I rarely disagree w/ Kas.
My biggest disagreement w/ Kas was probably Doom 3 (PC).

How he gave it a 8.5, while bitching and complaining for most of the entire review, is beyond me....

[ScaryTooth]

In retrospect, I think Kas's review of Doom 3 was spot on. He didn't get into the hype, and rated it for what it was.

[MysterD]

In retrospect, I think Kas's review of Doom 3 was spot on. He didn't get into the hype, and rated it for what it was.

I thought it was scored too high for his complaints, myself.

I wouldn't score D3 over an 8.0, myself.

[Quemaqua]

I think his score wasn't fair to his complaints.  It was obvious that he was rating it higher than he felt it deserved.  That said, I still thought his complaints were stupid, as I do anyone that thought Doom 3 was going to be anything other than what it was.  It was never misrepresented.  It was Doom.  In 3D.  With a little bit of plot and story exposition.  It wasn't really supposed to be anything else.

Anyway, that's not what this conversation is about, so I don't know why I'm going into it.  Case in point, Kas is pretty damned consistent, Gerstmann, not so much.

[Pugnate]

I don't know, you are bound to get a bit of inconsistency between reviews. I mean they are all supposed to adhere to the same rules and review everything by the same standards, but you can't expect everyone to share the same slightest preferences. I think Gspot like PCG are only two the few places that present a uniformed standard more than most.

We are talking about Gamespot, a website that for the most part does a great job of having its reviewers stick to a strict code. If anything, for my liking it is a bit too strict, and it keeps the personalities of some of the writers from shining. But it is their style, and despite the occasional straying, I can't think of anyone who  does it better.

As for Doom 3, in retrospect, his review was spot on, though his score was probably a bit too high considering his complaints.

edit:

I did find his complaint about it being illogical for the marines to not have a 24/7 flashlight to be a bit retarded. I mean for me the game was all about atmosphere, and that atmosphere was triggered by two things; sound and lighting.

The best way for the claustrophobia and horror to really take effect was to have light be scarce. So they chose an illogical way to go about it, so what? It was a freakin' plot device.

[TheOtherBelmont]

That's two negative comments I've seen in reviews now about the Wiimote gameplay.  This is probably one of my biggest fears about buying a Wii, yeah it might be fun at first but I can see it getting old really fast.  I hope they make an option in all of the games where you can just use a regular controller.  The comment about voice overs in the game's review is pretty stupid and it shouldn't have gotten knocked for that.

[Quemaqua]

I think the big problem isn't so much the control device, but using the control device in a way that isn't particularly advantageous or fun.  What concerns me is that this game is out on two platforms, and the motion sensing controls on the Wii version seem "tacked on".  That indicates to me no real effort was made to center the control around the controller so as to make it truly unique.  They just have you doing the same old shit and now want you to do it with a motion sensing controller.  *That* isn't going to get us anywhere.  The controller is only going to be innovative if you do innovative things with the controller.  That isn't to say I think they need to totally overhaul the core gameplay of every genre, they just need to be very mindful of taking advantage of what makes motion sensing technology unique.  Adapt the game to the technology more than you try to adapt the technology to the game.  Right?

[sirean_syan]

Looking a couple years back, the same thing pretty much happened with the DS. Initially the games were just so-so and the touch screen wasn't used very well. At some point the system just because downright freaking awesome. That said, at least half of the really great games don't even really use the touch screen very much, but those that do and do it well worked great. I imagine in a bit of time things will level out and games that don't need to use the Wiimote will just use a normalish controller while stuff made for it can potientially be awesome. We'll see.

Still, I'm really tempted to go hit up Best Buy tomorrow in the morning with the hopes of getting a system and Zelda.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.  I've been expecting a learning curve for development for such an odd controller, but I think it'll actually be cool once people start building stuph really tailored to it.  Still, at this point I just can't afford the system, and I've yet to finish OoT or WW, so... heh.

[Pugnate]

To be honest I am not surprised there are complaints about the controller regarding this game. Every preview of this game indicated that it was going to be the exact same as the GC version, aside from a few visual changes. I remember people from Nintendo talking not 6 months before the release date, about considering changes based on the Wii controller because of feedback they received. They said they were going to implement slight changes that allowed sword attacks to be done by controller movements. So yea, it was tacked on at the last minute, and thus it feels tacked on.

The success of this system solely hinges on the controller, but I am not too worried about it yet. Give the console six months, I am sure we will have some gems. My only misgiving was regarding the price, and I feel it is justified. When you are spending nearly $300 on the console including a title, then the 360 doesn't seem so far off especially with the deals popping up left and right. Plus the 360 is just easily a better future proof investment, in my opinion.

I wouldn't buy the Wii as my primary game console, it would be my side dish with something like a 360, PS3, or an up to date  PC.

[iPPi]

That's why I bought my Xbox360 yesterday.  4 games + Xbox Premium bundle was $450.  The Wii would be $279 and three games would be $150, that's $429. 

The prices are very comparable.

Still, I am considering getting a Wii in the near future.

[idolminds]

Cool editorial on the reaction to the 8.8 Zelda review.

[Pugnate]

Cool editorial on the reaction to the 8.8 Zelda review.

Wow that's pretty good. I enjoyed that article. What the hell is wrong with people anyway? And to think 8.8 is a pretty good score. If I were Jeff, I'd be enjoying this.

[MysterD]

8.8 is a great score -- especially from GameSpot.

Anytime a game gets over 8 on G-Spot, I usually think it's a must buy. 8.8 is close to a 9.0, so that really is a hell of a score from them...

...whether you agree w/ his complaints on "no full audio", "it's too much like other Zelda's" and the "Wii controller seems tacked on", or not.

[MysterD]

I think his score wasn't fair to his complaints.  It was obvious that he was rating it higher than he felt it deserved.  That said, I still thought his complaints were stupid, as I do anyone that thought Doom 3 was going to be anything other than what it was.  It was never misrepresented.  It was Doom.  In 3D.  With a little bit of plot and story exposition.  It wasn't really supposed to be anything else.

I never thought Doom 3 would be more than what I figured it was going to be. I figured, like RTCW was, it would be another Id Software-style game w/ pretty graphics.

I figured it'd be, at the least, good. And Doom 3 was.

Anyway, that's not what this conversation is about, so I don't know why I'm going into it.  Case in point, Kas is pretty damned consistent, Gerstmann, not so much.

I think I stated Doom 3 review to point out that there is those rear occassions I disagree w/ Kas. Actually, I think it's the ONLY time I disagreed w/ Kas.

Gertsman, I don't always agree w/. Surely, it's less than Kas. But, I do like him as a reviewer -- he's decent, but he's also very entertaining. His review for Need For Speed: Most Wanted was what sold me on eventually deciding to get the game. Glad I did. That game's fun.

I don't think I agree w/ his whine for "no full audio." Regardless, 8.8 is a great score. If I had a Wii, and I'm not really much of a Zelda fan, I think I'd try it. Are they planning to put all of the old Zelda's on the Wii?

Another curiosity: Can you run the GameCube versions of all the Zeldas on the Wii?

[idolminds]

If it runs on Gamecube, it runs on Wii. With the VC you'll be able to play the NES, SNES, and N64 Zeldas eventually. Wonder if they'll put the Gameboy games up there since the DS won't play them?

[MysterD]

If it runs on Gamecube, it runs on Wii.

Awesome!

Oh yeah -- I remember the talks of combining the Wii-Mote w/ the GC controller...that possible? Or they ditch that idea?

You can stick the GC Controller into the Wii's controller ports, right?

With the VC you'll be able to play the NES, SNES, and N64 Zeldas eventually.

How much will they charge to download those old games....?

Wonder if they'll put the Gameboy games up there since the DS won't play them?

Wouldn't be a surprise, if they did...

[idolminds]

The Wii has controller ports just like the GC, so you just plug everything in. Even GC memory cards (which you'll need to save GC games). Even the Wavebird works.

For the VC games, you buy Wii points. $10 per 1000 points. Doing the conversion, NES games are $5, SNES is $8, and $10 for N64. Genesis/Megadrive games go for $8 and TurboGrafx-16 are $6.

[MysterD]

GameSpot's Matt Rorie speaks, defending GameSpot on their review of Zelda: Twilight Princess

It's Zelda, people.

Since I know people are upset about the review (which is odd considering how few people have played this game at the moment), I figured I'd share some opinions based on playing through the first five hours or so of the game.

It's the same damn game we've all been playing for the last 15-odd years. Hey, guess what? You get to go into dungeons...and find items...and put together pieces of heart to make new heart containers. I haven't gotten very far into it, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Triforce is in the mix at some point.

There's a difference between tradition and ossification, and Nintendo's been content to let this series stay the same for too damn long. What's more, in a lot of ways it's actually getting to be pretty annoying. The helper characters, in particular, seem to be intended to be cute, but they wind up being maddeningly insufferable. In a lot of ways, Midna, the helper character from Twilight Princess, is even worse than Tingle from Wind Waker. And I don't know whose idea it was to make the first dungeon in the game feature a large number of monkeys that follow you around making incessent monkey noises, but they should be shot. Most annoying. sound. ever. When you have the pointer active, it also makes a shimmering sound as you move the Wiimote around. It never ever stops making this sound, and it got so damn annoying that I simply turned the pointer off completely.

Since every game in this series is more or less the same, outside of minor details, choosing among them is more or less a matter of deciding which style suits you best. Wind Waker had, at the very least, a graphical sensibility that was unique, whereas Twilight Princess just seems...generic. For a game that plays up its theoretically realistic graphical style, it also has to do a bit better job of representing the world; it's fine that the Wii isn't as powerful as a 360 or a PS3, but at the very least it should be capable of matching the best-looking games on the GameCube.

From top to bottom, Twilight Princess is a game that was transparently designed for the GameCube and hacked to work on the Wii. The controls feel kind of shoddy in a lot of ways. I guess what disappoints me most about this game is the lack of ambition and innovation. The Wii has some promising ideas behind it, but if they're content to have their flagship title be Just Another Zelda Game(TM) then they're getting off on the wrong foot.

I guess if you like the Zelda formula, then you'll like this game. Speaking for myself, though, I can't imagine how anyone really gets excited for them anymore; the recycling of game mechanics ventured into self-parody territory years ago. I really think the series needs to take a cue from Resident Evil 4 and reinvent itself completely. Heck, even the Final Fantasy games manage to make some big changes to the series' conventions with each installation. As it is, everything about Twilight Princess, and pretty much every game in the series aside from The Adventure of Link, smacks of Nintendo being content to play it safe with their big-money series. Give me something new!


Category: Editorial
Posted by MattRorie, Nov 18, 2006 6:34 am PT 233 Comments

[Quemaqua]

Interesting comments indeed.

[ScaryTooth]

I'll decide when I play. I got my copy of the game today. But still no system.

[ender]

I don't see what the big deal is on Zelda's review. It got a fucking 8.8... Fallout got less than that and now it's considered a classic on their site?

And Matt's comments seem pretty stupid. He sounds like a bitch in that rant... it's almost hypocritical because they gave Wind Waker such a glowing review... when Twilight Princess is much more exciting, interesting and different and the controls are far better. Take a que from Greg Kasavin, Matt, and stop sounding like some Penny Arcade fucktard.

[ren]

So I've basically played through the game up until the end of the Forest Temple, and I agree with the review. 8.8 is a fair score. The game is basically Ocarina of time mixed with wind waker. It's Zelda, by the books. As good as that is, you can't give it a perfect score every single time. I was playing the game with a feeling of deja vu, though I had never touched it before, and never read anything about it.

So everyone already knew that, but you have to hold the game to the same criteria that you hold every other series too. It's Zelda all over again.

[ScaryTooth]

I was thinking the same thing. But the game get much better. It doesn't really start to pick up until after the second dungeon. It fucking rocks. I'm addicted to it. It's super long too. I'm not even to the 3rd temple, and I'm 18 hours into it. It's not revolutionary or anything, but it's fantastic. I agree with the whole midi music thing, it needs to be orchestrated music at this point, although the music thats there is pretty good. And I think it's about time to add voice acting to the game. As long as link doesn't talk.

At this point, as far as I am into the game, I think it deserves more than an 8.8. Maybe somewhere between a 9.2-9.5.