Topic: Microsoft is screwing PC gamers again with Windows 8.

[Pugnate]

Brad Wardell:

http://kotaku.com/5897763/three-killer-problems-that-threaten-windows-8

Gabe Newell:

http://kotaku.com/5929067/gabe-newell-wants-to-support-linux-because-windows-8-is-a-catastrophe

Both articles are fascinating. I think what will happen is that Windows 8 will flop, and then Windows 9 will be back to regular programming. But these guys are arguing that it could be too late.

Brad:

I've seen Windows 8 advocates say that if you don't have a tablet you should just stick with Windows 7. I think a lot of people may do that.

But here's the problem for Microsoft: This isn't 1999 where they could ship a Windows ME type product and users had no real alternatives. 2012 is the year in which millions of users are using an iOS or Android device.

By the time Windows 8 is released, it's going to be facing a market where displays are going start including AirPlay and/or Intel WiDi. That means mobile devices will be able to stream their output to large screens. Connect a Bluetooth keyboard, mouse, gamepad and suddenly that mobile device could become a real threat.

I'm a PC developer. I want Windows 8 to succeed. I have Windows games and software in development with releases dates far in the future. It's a pretty big deal to us that Windows 8 not fail.

[Pugnate]

OK it seems both Gabe and Brad are talking out of their asses. I do remember trying Metro and it was nothing like the doom these guys were preaching. It allowed 'classic' mode, no problems. Then I read someone who had read Gabe's piece, and says the problem is that Windows 8 has a Steam style market place and it probably won't be in Valve's best interests to see Windows 8 succeed. Finally, I read this comment on Kotaku, and it says what I remember.

So what is up with Bard's piece?

Reply from Kotaku user:

OMG...where to start.

#1 - No you don't. From the desktop, literally, just type Mass Effect 3, or just Mass, or just Ma...it will pull up the program. Or better yet, put an icon on your desktop. WTH people. You do not, at any time, have to go to Metro.

#2 - No it doesn't. The desktop mode works exactly as your current desktop. Full screen, minimized, regular, left snapped, right snapped, etc. For god sakes, notepad isn't even a Metro app. The point is, Metro works NO DIFFERENTLY than other tablets on the market. And if you don't want that, then go to the desktop where everything is, again, EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS 7. You are not ever forced to full screen or do anything differently than you currently do on Windows 7, save for the missing start menu, which is a non-issue.

#3 - There will be an adjustment for users, sure...just like there was for Vista/7 for those coming from XP. But they'll get over it. It's not THAT different from the desktop perspective. Metro doesn't span multiple monitors? No shit. Neither do tablets. But the desktop does...which is the ONLY place that would matter. You don't need to move your mouse anywhere if you don't want. Everyone knows how to use Alt-Tab, or to look at their task bar at the bottom and click. Don't know how to open another tab in IE from Metro? REALLY? Did you try to just right click ANYWHERE on the screen? BAM. Control tabs at top and bottom for typing in a web address, creating a new tab, viewing existing tabs, bookmarks, etc. It's stupid simple and actually much nicer than regular IE.

How do I know? Because I'm using it right now. I've even included a screenshot of Metro IE on this very page, with the tab view open (again, just right click anywhere), which also shows my media player docked to the side, which is awesome.

I seriously don't mean to be hateful here, but please please PLEASE quit spreading false information about something you obviously know nothing about. You're scaring the children.

edit:

On MS's Windows 8 website, it says you can turn off Metro and use Windows 7 mode as you please. I really don't get these articles from Brad and Gabe. From what I am reading, underneath Metro it is still the same old open OS.

It almost seems to be that Gabe wants to push Steam's own operating system, and this is looking to be his excuse since everyone takes him at word of mouth. Who knows.

[Cools!]

I feel the big problem for Microsoft right now is that they are trying to push the tablet design too quickly in an attempt to catch up in the market. Windows 8, even though you'll be able to turn of Metro, is going to be a big shock to users and I see a lot of people sticking with Windows 7.

Apple on the other hand has been feeding us iOS features in Mac OS X for some time now, gradually through minor OS updates, mostly hidden among bug and optimization fixes. For example in Lion they've added that apps have a fullscreen mode as well similar to Windows 8. Now in Mountain Lion (which was released today) they've made some more subtle changes. At a cost of $19.99, a lot of people will see it as a no brainer update.

[MysterD]

OK it seems both Gabe and Brad are talking out of their asses. I do remember trying Metro and it was nothing like the doom these guys were preaching. It allowed 'classic' mode, no problems. Then I read someone who had read Gabe's piece, and says the problem is that Windows 8 has a Steam style market place and it probably won't be in Valve's best interests to see Windows 8 succeed. Finally, I read this comment on Kotaku, and it says what I remember.

So what is up with Bard's piece?

Reply from Kotaku user:

edit:

On MS's Windows 8 website, it says you can turn off Metro and use Windows 7 mode as you please. I really don't get these articles from Brad and Gabe. From what I am reading, underneath Metro it is still the same old open OS.

It almost seems to be that Gabe wants to push Steam's own operating system, and this is looking to be his excuse since everyone takes him at word of mouth. Who knows.

Keep in mind, Brad is now [FINALLY] selling his company's games ALSO on Steam, since Stardock exited the digital distribution market....since, you know, Elemental tanked so bad, he then sold off Impulse to GameStop. I'm sure Brad's following the "Gabe train" here.

BTW - I think it's cool Gabe wants to support Linux, but I think he really need to ALSO stick w/ Windows, as well - it's where most of his users are at, right now. If he's smart - he'll try and have his Steam platform on as many OS's as possible (Linux, Windows, Mac, etc).

Like you said about XBL/G4WL for Win 8 - I bet they both (Gabe and Brad) don't like, as well, that G4WL/XBL is built basically right into the Win 8 OS, as well; since these are the two guys that really tried to push their digital distribution platform on us BIG time. And well, Steam won that war. [shrug]

If Win 8 is nothing special - and it sure looks like it, for now - I'll probably still stick w/ Win 7, for now.

Both articles are fascinating. I think what will happen is that Windows 8 will flop, and then Windows 9 will be back to regular programming. But these guys are arguing that it could be too late.

I think that's possible.
But, if Win 8 has "classic Win 7" mode and that's easy enough to turn on, will Win 8 really flop?
Everybody will just turn that Metro UI off, if they hate it that much.
That or just stick w/ Win 7.

Hehe - that'd be funny if Win 7 becomes basically the new Win XP - i.e. the Windows OS that users will hang onto as long as they can, until something from Microsoft a few iterations down the line comes out and is actually pretty good and that the hardware has SEVERELY changed by then.

EDIT:
I think the think what I'm most curious about w/ Win 8 - so, has G4WL/XBL been revamped here or what? Is it finally going to be a decent PC gaming platform?
B/c, as is - G4WL sucks.

[idolminds]

I'll most likely be getting Win8. Why? Because everyone says its basically Win7 underneath anyway, and they are going to have a special $40 launch price for upgrade copies, including upgrades from XP. So its time for me to upgrade and save some cash.

[MysterD]

I'll most likely be getting Win8. Why? Because everyone says its basically Win7 underneath anyway, and they are going to have a special $40 launch price for upgrade copies, including upgrades from XP. So its time for me to upgrade and save some cash.

Yeah, the $40 launch upgrade's tempting...

I really want to know - who that gets Win 8 is going to hate Metro UI so much, that they'll not even deal want to deal w/ Win 8?
The casual users, maybe?

Power users will just put "classic Win 7 mode" back on.
[shrug]

[Pugnate]

I'll most likely be getting Win8. Why? Because everyone says its basically Win7 underneath anyway, and they are going to have a special $40 launch price for upgrade copies, including upgrades from XP. So its time for me to upgrade and save some cash.

Yea that's an amazing price. What do you think of all this stuff from Valve about Win8 being a 'catastrophe'?

[Cobra951]

. . . You're scaring the children.

I went through a bit of that when I first read his piece yesterday, but it didn't take long to see that he was making a tempest in a teapot.  He's full of it, or he's crazy like a fox.  Personally, I don't care at all for Metro.  It belongs on closed, limited systems, and not on open PCs.  As long as I can bypass it entirely and keep a GUI that makes sense to me, I won't avoid 8 the way I avoided Vista.  I wish it went away, since 7 is perfect for 64-bit systems (like XP was for 32-bit systems).  Since that's not going to happen, as long as they push their trendy shit while leaving the established userbase alone, I can live with it.

[Pugnate]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377

"This is a shop through which users will be able to buy apps for their Windows 8 device.

On some versions of Windows 8, it will be the only way to get downloadable software such as games.

Microsoft takes a cut, up to 30%, of every sale made through this store.

This could be a significant threat to the massively successful Steam online game store that Valve runs and which gives it a commission on every title sold through the online market. "

Why are PC gamers so blind to Valve?

[MysterD]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377

"This is a shop through which users will be able to buy apps for their Windows 8 device.

On some versions of Windows 8, it will be the only way to get downloadable software such as games.

Microsoft takes a cut, up to 30%, of every sale made through this store.

This could be a significant threat to the massively successful Steam online game store that Valve runs and which gives it a commission on every title sold through the online market. "

Why are PC gamers so blind to Valve?

Wait...Valve takes a cut for every game made through his digital store! And so do MOST companies that have any 3rd party games on THEIR digital platform.

Does Gabe really think PC gamers are gonna switch from Steam to G4WL/XBL?
Hold on, while I keep laughing more and more...  

Most PC gamers ALREADY dislike, hate, or don't care too much for Microsoft's G4WL.
Most of them DO NOT expect much from G4WL/XBL on Win 8 - I surely don't, given MS's history w/ G4WL on the PC.
Many of these PC gamers are already in LOVE with Steam - for better, worse, or somewhere in-between.

As long as Steam keeps putting their services & games on Windows platform - I think Steam will still own the HUGE majority of the PC digital distribution market.

On some versions of Windows 8, it will be the only way to get downloadable software such as games.

What the hell does this mean?  
Is Microsoft actually blocking-out other digital stores from actually functioning on some versions of Windows 8?

[Pugnate]

I don't think so. MS won't do that.

[Cobra951]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377

"This is a shop through which users will be able to buy apps for their Windows 8 device.

On some versions of Windows 8, it will be the only way to get downloadable software such as games.

Microsoft takes a cut, up to 30%, of every sale made through this store.

This could be a significant threat to the massively successful Steam online game store that Valve runs and which gives it a commission on every title sold through the online market. "

Why are PC gamers so blind to Valve?

We're back to the "scaring the children" part.  If this is true at all, there is no way I will ever run Windows 8 on any PC that I own.  I'm assuming that it isn't true, or that those "some versions" are for dedicated closed devices, and not something surreptitiously pushed at the general PC user.

[MysterD]

We're back to the "scaring the children" part.  If this is true at all, there is no way I will ever run Windows 8 on any PC that I own.  I'm assuming that it isn't true, or that those "some versions" are for dedicated closed devices, and not something surreptitiously pushed at the general PC user.

I still want to know what this "some versions of Windows 8" part is..
Are we talking mobile versions of Win 8? some desktop versions of Win 8? or what?

If it doesn't effect power-users on the desktop, I doubt they'll care.
Plus, doesn't Steam have a new mobile app for phones so you can access Steam? [shrug]

[idolminds]

Yea that's an amazing price. What do you think of all this stuff from Valve about Win8 being a 'catastrophe'?

Its hard to say because he doesn't specify *why* its a catastrophe. And as you've pointed out it could be as simple as him not liking the built-in store that could end up competing with Steam. So it could be a catastrophe for Valve but no one else will care.

This is a shop through which users will be able to buy apps for their Windows 8 device.

On some versions of Windows 8, it will be the only way to get downloadable software such as games.

Doing some quick searching, I think this is mostly a non-issue. I looked at all the versions of Windows 8 and I don't see this mentioned anywhere. What I'm guessing they mean is this: I believe Metro apps must be sold through the app store, and the Windows 8 RT version is Metro only. But that version is specifically for ARM-based tablets and will come preinstalled and has no desktop mode. Its basically the same as any iOS device.

That may not be entirely correct but I do not see any version of Win 8 that otherwise would force you to buy things through the app store.

[Quemaqua]

I won't be upgrading because I just upgraded to Windows 7 and I'm sick and fucking tired of spending money on worthless shit upgrades that provide me absolutely no value.

[idolminds]

Yeah upgrading from 7 doesn't make much sense.

[Xessive]

Honestly, aside from habit the only reasons I stick to Windows are 1) Games and 2) Adobe Creative Suite. If my games worked in Linux and it had full hardware support I'd switch to Ubuntu in a heartbeat. I suspect that most (if not all) PC gamers are in the same boat. If Microsoft mess with that they stand to lose a lot. I don't think they'd be stupid enough alienate a whole chunk of their userbase but we've seen it happen before.

[idolminds]

An interesting wrinkle in the story that may point further at why Gabe isn't happy. Its a long term issue.

WinRT is that new programming language...thingy. Whatever, you write Metro apps and such in it and they need to be sold through the Windows store. So heres the thing, the rumor is MS will make WinRT the programming language for the Xbox 720. Cross platform releases are easy then from Tablets, Xbox, and PC (and Windows Phone or whatever...who uses those?). You can see then that sometime down the road PC releases will be going through the Windows store. Sure multiplatform games will be written in something else for PS4/WiiU but what business is going to port those versions to PC when they won't have to with the WinRT version they have?

They might do those ports for a little while so they still run on the large Win7 install base but if Win8 adoption takes off then its only a matter of time before Steam is essentially shut off from new releases, along with every other online game store. Steam will sell Valve games and indies, plus the back catalog.

So yeah, that could end up being kinda shitty in the long run if MS ever decides to stop supporting legacy desktops.

[MysterD]

GameSpy's thoughts on Gabe's opinion.

[Cobra951]

God, I hope I never see this on my PC screen.



Idol, that makes a lot of sense.  Your term "legacy desktop" makes me wince.  Legacy?  That is something to fear longterm, that we're all pushed slowly but surely down the Metro abyss.  That may very well be what Gabe is fearing too.  Is he saying "make my day"?  "Try it, and I'll remove the last obstacle to a Linux utopia"?

[idolminds]

Heh, yeah. Though I'm not terribly worried about MS dropping the desktop. They need the corporate world far too much and I don't see Metro taking care of their needs. That would be the surest way for corporate to adopt Linux and everyone else wouldn't be far behind.

I don't think Valve/Steam on Linux is going to do much at all for Linux adoption. Unless Valve plans on boosting the WINE project to get current games in there and making it a viable place to play, you're still going to need a copy of Windows. There just a lot that needs to happen for a huge switch to Linux and I don't think Win8 is going to that poorly to make it happen. Not that I would be opposed to it happening.

[scottws]

FYI people, Windows 8 (not Windows RT) has a desktop mode and that is very similar to Windows 7.  However there are major changes to the Start menu: it is gone and replaced by that Metro "Start menu" that Cobra posted.  And it isn't accessed via the lower-left corner of the screen as has been traditional since Windows 95.

[MysterD]

GTTV -> Rob Pardo, the Vice President of Blizzard agrees w/ Gabe's opinion of Windows 8.

[Cobra951]

FYI people, Windows 8 (not Windows RT) has a desktop mode and that is very similar to Windows 7.  However there are major changes to the Start menu: it is gone and replaced by that Metro "Start menu" that Cobra posted.  And it isn't accessed via the lower-left corner of the screen as has been traditional since Windows 95.

Yikes . . .

[gpw11]

FYI people, Windows 8 (not Windows RT) has a desktop mode and that is very similar to Windows 7.  However there are major changes to the Start menu: it is gone and replaced by that Metro "Start menu" that Cobra posted.  And it isn't accessed via the lower-left corner of the screen as has been traditional since Windows 95.

Oh, great...my parent's are going to fucking love that.  I have no problem with the optional Metro interface, but that's a drastic and unnecessary change. 

[idolminds]

Stardock made Start8 to restore the start menu, free. So at least there is a "fix" for that.

Ok so now the Blizzard guy agrees with Gabe. I hope some journalist actually goes and asks them for specifics for why its so terrible. That second article again repeated that certain versions of Win8 can only get new software via the store and I haven't found any evidence to back that claim up (other than tablets, which isnt really the same thing we're talking about).

The only thing Steam would miss out on is Metro apps/games, since those must be sold through the Windows app store. Outside some indie games I imagine there won't be a whole ton of games doing that since it limits your market to just Win8.

Came across these two articles when searching for that "must use the store versions" thing. They basically say a Linux switch is just a dream and Win8 isn't nearly a "catastrophe" like Gabe says.
Article 1
Article 2

[gpw11]

Linux is a dream.  I remember reading that the desktop userbase was somewhere under 5%. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I can't see a ton of people switching over just for gaming.  I'd imagine OSX would be the more likely candidate for switching.

[idolminds]

Which in its own way rather funny. "OMG MS is going to copy Apple and have a locked down platform with its own app store! I better...uh...switch to OSX?"

Other people saying there should be a Steam OS...which I'm sure Blizzard would be thrilled with.

[Xessive]

Haha it'll turn into a catch 22 scenario

I have some faith that Microsoft won't completely screw us over, at least not with Windows 8. I just hope they don't revert to their old "toss it over the fence" attitude they had toward OS building. Windows 7 marks the first time in Microsoft's history where they've taken their userbase's suggestions into account in terms of UI design.

[MysterD]

Stardock made Start8 to restore the start menu, free. So at least there is a "fix" for that.

Leave it to Stardock, to do what they do best - fixing and improving Windows.
I still so love Fences! And still use it on Win 7 here!

EDIT -- 7-30-2012:
ClassicShell - another mod to put back classic style menus into Win 8.

[Xessive]

Microsoft Responds to Windows 8 Backlash From Game Developers

According to Microsoft Windows 8 will offer built-in games and related achievements, and that Xbox Live is fully integrated into the OS. They once again re-affirmed their commitment to the Games for Windows Live brand, and that the future of the Xbox would be closely tied to Windows 8. "With Xbox on Windows 8, we created easy entry points into the types of entertainment that you’ll enjoy, including games," a spokesperson told VentureBeat. "The Games app prominently features your avatar, profile, friends and Gamerscore and allows you to explore your friends’ avatars." Users will also be able to buy games for their Xbox on the PC, and queue them for downloading on the console.

WTF? I don't own nor do I intend on buying an Xbox 360! Furthermore I don't appreciate locking mt PC down into the horrifying world of regional restrictions! My Gamertag is already permanently tied to the UK even though I don't live there. Why the F would I want my PC to be tied into that mess?

Speaking of which, my Win8 test unit has in fact proven that the pC does become toiled in this retarded world of region-based access. In order to use Windows 8 features and to have a proper sync I had to actually go into the control panel and change my PC's location settings to United Kingdom. For what? So that the almighty new Start menu can display sync data correctly, so that the Games app can work properly, etc. This is regardless of the fact that I already signed in with my Windows Live ID (WLID). It brings up an error message that basically says the WLID is based in the UK however your PC's location setting does not match.

I confess, this whole WLID and Gamertag mess was a major deterrent in my decision between consoles back in 2008 when I went out to finally buy one. I didn't even know I had a problem until I went around reading up on the Xbox 360 and I discovered that my old WLID (xessive @ hotmail) was inextricably tied to a dead gamertag. By dead I mean completely unusable. Won't even let me log in just to change the WLID that it's tied to.

Anyway, I'm gonna rant long and hard if I keep on this, so I'll just stop. For now.

[Quemaqua]

Good rants. Every step we take, we lose more control.

[Cobra951]

. . .
Anyway, I'm gonna rant long and hard if I keep on this, so I'll just stop. For now.

No, no.  Don't stop.  We need good reporting on this unacceptable bullshit.  As long as there are better alternatives--even by Microsoft itself, why the fuck should we submit to Windows 8?

[Xessive]

These issues are bad enough for me that I am considering dropping my Windows Phone 7 device (HTC HD7) in favour of an Android device just so I wouldn't be subjected to this bullshit any longer. I don't have an Xbox or an Xbox 360, so really, which should I be bound to this obtuse regional restriction? That model may have applied to console gamers who, according to Microsoft, rarely move. However, it does not apply to PC users, mobile users, tablets users, and pretty much everybody else. It is an asinine approach to an increasingly redundant problem.

I wish I could sit down and have a word with whoever is responsible for changing this in Microsoft.

[idolminds]

Giantbomb Quick Look of Windows 8

[MysterD]

Microsoft Responds to Windows 8 Backlash From Game Developers

WTF? I don't own nor do I intend on buying an Xbox 360! Furthermore I don't appreciate locking mt PC down into the horrifying world of regional restrictions! My Gamertag is already permanently tied to the UK even though I don't live there. Why the F would I want my PC to be tied into that mess?

Speaking of which, my Win8 test unit has in fact proven that the pC does become toiled in this retarded world of region-based access. In order to use Windows 8 features and to have a proper sync I had to actually go into the control panel and change my PC's location settings to United Kingdom. For what? So that the almighty new Start menu can display sync data correctly, so that the Games app can work properly, etc. This is regardless of the fact that I already signed in with my Windows Live ID (WLID). It brings up an error message that basically says the WLID is based in the UK however your PC's location setting does not match.

I confess, this whole WLID and Gamertag mess was a major deterrent in my decision between consoles back in 2008 when I went out to finally buy one. I didn't even know I had a problem until I went around reading up on the Xbox 360 and I discovered that my old WLID (xessive @ hotmail) was inextricably tied to a dead gamertag. By dead I mean completely unusable. Won't even let me log in just to change the WLID that it's tied to.

Anyway, I'm gonna rant long and hard if I keep on this, so I'll just stop. For now.

Yeah, the regional stuff is crap. Always has been crap, always will be - bleh! You'd figure by now, w/ the ease of digital download services - regions restrictions could and should be a thing of the past!

And this is EXACTLY it - Microsoft has been trying to re-brand G4WL into XBox. Sure, they might sell limited amount of Windows games and G4WL games on their XB store - but they'e calling it XB Marketplace now!
On their website, it's BURIED for finding Windows PC games.
And, they are also trying to get you to use your computer for...well, not the PC gaming that we know and love. Seems...like they're going for some VERY casual gaming on the PC - especially from Jeff Gerstmann's vid on GiantBomb.
They (Microsoft) also sounds like they want you to do your "core" gaming on the XBox - as they iterated you can use your "PC to buy your XB games then go to XB console and download there."
WTF? What about the "core" PC games? Are they afraid to compete w/ Valve and other DD services? Have they, more or less, given up? Sure as hell looks like it.

I just don't get Microsoft. Windows is THEIR OS...and they just can't come up w/ a competitive PC gaming service to battle Steam? Of all freaking companies - even EA figured this shit out w/ Origin. Origin is nowhere as robust as Steam - but dammit, they got their foot in the door...and they're on their way (i.e. BF3 and ME3 require Origin, for starters). Even UbiSoft has expanded their UPlay into trying to be a full-blown client like Steam and Origin.

No wonder Blizz, Valve, Stardock and others are speaking against Windows 8...

After watching Jeff's video from GiantBomb (thanks, Idol!) - this even more so looks like Windows 8 looks like a disaster waiting to happen. God, that Metro UI looks terrible for a desktop. I just don't know why they let users switch b/t Win 7-style Desktop UI and Metro UI.

[Cobra951]

Notch squares off with Microsoft over Windows 8.

[Xessive]

Notch squares off with Microsoft over Windows 8.

His game, his right not to support a platform that goes out of its way to piss on the PC.

[MysterD]

Valve's serious about Linux over Win 8...

VG247 -> Steam Linux - Internal Betas start next week.

Steam Linux – internal beta to start next week
An internal beta for the Linux version of Steam will start next week and a private external test for 1,000 users will start later in October, according to Develop.

The external beta will include a test of Steam, one Valve title, and Ubuntu 12.04 and above support. It will not include Big Picture or other Valve games at first.

Valve hasn’t said which of its games will be tested, but it’s assumed to be Left 4 Dead 2 as it would be the first game Linux released for the service. the company previously said that Left 4 Dead 2 would be the first game rolled out on the operating system, making it likely this could be the title in question.

Experienced Linux users are encouraged to participate in the test, while Valve recommends newer Linux users wait for another round of testing which will contain new features and improvements.