Topic: Steam's SSA changed to...try to stop class-action lawsuits.

[MysterD]

D, if that happens, the console that I get next gen (if any) will depend on who doesn't follow that path.  Right now, everything I play is completely under my control.  If I don't like what's happening online, I pull the ethernet cable, and it all still works.  Indie games on XBL flew in once under my radar, before I knew they required a constant online connection.  It cost me one dollar I otherwise would not have spent.  I chalked that fail to experience.  Never again will I buy an indie game on this platform.

Exactly. Right now, it's all a "what if" scenario. But, you know damn well - companies like Sony and M$ - they are going to eventually try to run down that path.
XBL having games requiring a always online connection is just a start in that direction...

All of the "always online DRM" and nasty EULA's are getting damn well out-of-hand...

[PyroMenace]

I tried to stay out of it, snuck in to make a short oblique comment in response to Que's short post, and ended up getting called a troll anyway, just as if I had flown off the handle against holy Steam and the Valve saints once again.  That's what I find so ironic.  That's why I'm laughing.  There's no way to even briefly allude to the absolute, inevitably corrupting power of Steam without getting pelted, anywhere, not even here, where I've been for years.

I guess you're totally oblivious to your own statements. Do you just type stuff in click post and erase it from your memory? Quit acting like you didn't throw the rock first.

The only irony I see is that your not getting shit from any sort of argument. Im giving you shit for acting like a 18 year old troll, which you are.

[Cools!]

Relax you two.

Going back to the topic in particular to what Xessive mentioned: you can't really let the dollar speak anymore because you've already bought games through or tied to Steam in the past. If they can invalidate any retail games you bought if you cancel the Steam account then you are just screwed to stick with them from now on.

[MysterD]

Going back to the topic in particular to what Xessive mentioned: you can't really let the dollar speak anymore because you've already bought games through or tied to Steam in the past. If they can invalidate any retail games you bought if you cancel the Steam account then you are just screwed to stick with them from now on.

Bingo.
I think this, among many other things in Steam's SSA, are grounds for lawsuits...

EDIT:
Same could be said about things in many other EULA's and in Origin's EULA, as well...

[scottws]

I tried to stay out of it, snuck in to make a short oblique comment in response to Que's short post, and ended up getting called a troll anyway, just as if I had flown off the handle against holy Steam and the Valve saints once again.  That's what I find so ironic.  That's why I'm laughing.  There's no way to even briefly allude to the absolute, inevitably corrupting power of Steam without getting pelted, anywhere, not even here, where I've been for years.

Cobra, I think you're wrong and seeing smoke where there is none.  This community has some of the biggest, most outspoken Valve haters anywhere, and nowhere in this thread did anyone defend Valve from what I can tell.  In several posts I expressed how incensed I was at Valve for my issue with DX:HR and no one came swooping in to Valve's defense.  Frankly the way this thread reads, it's almost like you are responding to posts that are invisible to me and everyone else.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, a lot of people have chimed in and the important bits have boiled down to this:

• The way Steam works as a service, they essentially have the right to change their terms whenever they want and there is nothing you can do about it except decide you are giving up all games you've previously purchased through Steam as well as retail titles that use Steamworks and decide not to purchase new titles from Steam.
• Pretty must every online PC game storefront works like this and has similar terms, so it's only a matter of time before you are basically completely screwed.  The only real recourse other than just dealing with itis to only buy indie games that are sold independently or through things like the Humble Indie Bundle, or to buy from GOG.com.  At this point games you've bought through Steam or its ilk or games that require Steam should be considered not yours and at risk for loss.

Frankly, this sucks and at this point we require protection from Congress or sanity in the courtrooms behind the bench.  Honestly I'd trust the latter more, but AT&T won that one court case that required binding arbitration so maybe we can't trust anything anymore.

[Xessive]

Snuck is not a word. That is all. 

[MysterD]

• Pretty must every online PC game storefront works like this and has similar terms, so it's only a matter of time before you are basically completely screwed.  The only real recourse other than just dealing with itis to only buy indie games that are sold independently or through things like the Humble Indie Bundle, or to buy from GOG.com.  At this point games you've bought through Steam or its ilk or games that require Steam should be considered not yours and at risk for loss.

Some digital download store-fronts don't have a forced-client & might even sell some games to you as DRM-FREE. Often, going DRM-FREE is up to the dev's and publisher w/ some of these digital download store-fronts. You can still buy some DRM-FREE games from stores like Gamersgate, Amazon DVG, GameStop PC App, etc - you just have to look at the game's page and see if its DRM is explicitly stated and listed as (hopefully) DRM-FREE.
i.e. Gamersgate has like 65 pages worth of DRM-FREE games -> including EgoSoft's X1, X2 + X3 series; Many of the old Epic Unreal games; Velvet Assassin; Risen 1; etc etc.

[MysterD]

Snuck is not a word. That is all.  

Yes, it is.
Past participle form of "sneak."
So...

[Xessive]

Yes, it is.
Past participle form of "sneak."
So...

Chiefly US and Canadian not standard a past tense and past participle of sneak.

English, my good man! We speak English! Indubitably! Harrrumph! Pardon me while I twirl my walrus moustache.

EDIT:
Successful hijacking of thread? Yes?

[MysterD]

@Xessive
I don't speak English-English. I speak American-English.

EDIT:
Though, reading EULA's is like reading Legalese-English.

[Xessive]

Yep. They do tend to rely on confusing the end-user a lot more often than any legal binding document should.

[idolminds]

Yeah its made very confusing. For example, they use language like "Purchase for myself, purchase as a gift" when you go to buy something. Purchase is very specific language and is different from a subscription.

With Steam we are dealing with 3 things: Steam, the game license, and the game. You have a free "subscription" to Steam, which is your account. It has its own agreement. Steam then sells you a game license (again with that "purchase" language) that allows you to play the game. The game has its own EULA. As part of your Steam subscription they let you download the actual game files so that you can play it with your license.

If you no longer agree with the terms of your Steam subscription, what happens to your paid for game licenses? Technically shouldn't you have those still since you still agree with their individual usage terms and have paid in full? Maybe Steam doesn't have to serve you the files anymore but you damn well should still be able to play.

Really its going to take a court case to decide digital property and what all this shit even means. With so many people buying digital content on a wide range of services its only a matter of time before it gets decided.

I mean the alternative scenario for Steam is that they don't ever sell you anything. Steam keeps ownership of the game licenses for itself and gives you a one time payment to access their games, which they can revoke at any time. Essentially we are simply borrowing from Valves vast game library.

[Xessive]

I mean the alternative scenario for Steam is that they don't ever sell you anything. Steam keeps ownership of the game licenses for itself and gives you a one time payment to access their games, which they can revoke at any time. Essentially we are simply borrowing from Valves vast game library.

Isn't that how OnLive and Gaikai work?

The advantage of EA having their own digital distribution platform is having the option. When I buy an EA title on Steam, I can activate its key in Origin and I can have it there too. This is, of course, an exceptional scenario. Ubisoft seem to be moving in a similar direction with their Uplay titles. But is that the answer? For each publisher to have their own independent distribution channels to download their games? That could be great. Imagine, purchasing a game (retail or digital) entitles the player to download directly from the publisher along with their original digital purchase location. This could also add a lot of stress on the publishers' servers, causing games to get yet another price hike.

This is why I like the Indie bundles, since they give me access to my purchases from multiple channels: Steam, Desura, or direct download. Most of them do anyway.

[idolminds]

Its kind of a wild west so who knows how it will end up. I think more and more companies will sell their games directly simply because why bother sharing all their profits with someone else? Though I don't think each company running their own Origin/Steam/Uplay, etc is going to fly. No one really wants that. So an ideal solution would be to sell the games self contained...no matter where you buy. So buy direct, but it from a "generic" online store like Steam, or Amazon, or whatever.

But first we need to get through the period when things like Uplay sound like a great ideas to the head honchos. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

[Xessive]

ArenaNet took an interesting path with Guild Wars 2. It's a quasi-retail option; wherever you buy the game (retail or online) you have to activate the key with ArenaNet and either use your disc to install the content or download the client directly from them. It's essentially the same idea as an in-house distribution platform but exclusively for that one game. The obvious advantage is if you take any issue with the game's agreements or terms you only risk that one game and its platform. A different game from the same publisher/developer may be bound by other terms and conditions but you're still bound by your user account and its terms and conditions.

That's pretty much what I do with EA games. Wherever I get them I activate them on Origin.

Uplay, on the other hand, is built right into the games, so wherever I get the game I have to use it regardless, then again it is not a full distribution platform yet.

I like the idea of a single location to access my games and their relevant details. But again, that's panning out to be a "putting all your eggs in one basket" scenario.

[Pugnate]

I tried to stay out of it, snuck in to make a short oblique comment in response to Que's short post, and ended up getting called a troll anyway, just as if I had flown off the handle against holy Steam and the Valve saints once again.  That's what I find so ironic.  That's why I'm laughing.  There's no way to even briefly allude to the absolute, inevitably corrupting power of Steam without getting pelted, anywhere, not even here, where I've been for years.

haha Cobra are you sure you aren't projecting? Or just jumping at shadows? I feel to the contrary everyone was upset about this whole Steam thing for once. Even the people here who like the platform, such as myself.

It is all good. We all just needs to chill.

[MysterD]

Isn't that how OnLive and Gaikai work?

The advantage of EA having their own digital distribution platform is having the option. When I buy an EA title on Steam, I can activate its key in Origin and I can have it there too. This is, of course, an exceptional scenario. Ubisoft seem to be moving in a similar direction with their Uplay titles. But is that the answer? For each publisher to have their own independent distribution channels to download their games? That could be great. Imagine, purchasing a game (retail or digital) entitles the player to download directly from the publisher along with their original digital purchase location. This could also add a lot of stress on the publishers' servers, causing games to get yet another price hike.

This is why I like the Indie bundles, since they give me access to my purchases from multiple channels: Steam, Desura, or direct download. Most of them do anyway.

Origin is a decent EXTRA option, yes. Especially w/ Steam-purchased EA games that do activate up on Origin. That's GREAT. So, if something happens to Steam, as long as Origin's still around, you can just swing over to them.

Not liking Origin as a forced-requirement on some games, though. The problem w/ EA is they are making Origin a requirement on certain games -- i.e. Mass Effect 3; Battlefield 3; KOA: Reckoning (Non-Steam versions); Syndicate (2012 FPS); NFS: The Run; etc etc.
And of late, this trend of EA doing this - and copying Steam, on that matter - is continuing.

Oh, and their Origin EULA - just like Steam's SSA & Privacy Policy - is pretty ridiculous, on certain things.

EDIT:
1Up has a look at the future of gaming - since things like changes in Steam's SSA; UPlay's security flaws; and some of Dragon Quest X's issues.

[idolminds]

So hey, this ain't dead!

Valve faces legal challenge over Steam. (in Germany)

German consumer rights group says agreement 'coerces' players into signing

The Federation of German Consumer Organisation has given Valve until October 10 to give a reasonable response to its desist order or face legal action.

The umbrella group of consumer rights agencies says the Steam EULA agreement, which requires consumers to waive thier right to class action lawsuits against Valve, is coercive.

Failure to consent to the new terms left several Steam users without access to their library of games.

The Verbraucherzentrale Bundesverband e.V., or VZBV, also seeks to bring Valve into compliance with the European Union's recent ruling on the resale of digital goods: a feature available only on Steam.

"Valve has a new deadline (10.10.2012) to respond to our letter now. Maybe after this time we will resolve the dispute in the court," the VZBV's Carola Elbrecht, chief officer and coordinator of advocacy for digital consumerism, told Cinemablend.

Too bad its just the Germans smart enough to not take that horseshit. I don't know where forcing them to allow resale part is going to go, but I can't see them being able to wiggle out of the coercion charge with that updated EULA. That's exactly what they did.

[Cobra951]

Gotta love the EU.  They're the only civilized Western society that still cares about consumer rights.  Great news, even if not on the home front.