Author Topic: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)  (Read 7503 times)

Offline Pugnate

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A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 12:47:03 AM »
The world's biggest patent troll, Apple, has won an unprecedented USD 1 billion in their court case over Samsung.

Add 12 billion to that when Samsung's shares fell as a result.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/27/business/south-korea-apple-samsung/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Quote
"It will lead to fewer choices, less innovation, and potentially higher prices," Samsung said in a written statement after Friday's decision. "It is unfortunate that patent law can be manipulated to give one company a monopoly over rectangles with rounded corners, or technology that is being improved every day by Samsung and other companies."

Let's be clear. No one has ever bought a Samsung phone because they confused it with an Apple phone.



Here is a good piece on this from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-08-25/apple-samsung-patent-trial-impact/57332198/1

Offline Pugnate

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #1 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 12:55:37 AM »
Someone said that manufacturers are going to wonder about the minefield they have to tread through, wondering which patent they are stepping on.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #2 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 01:00:41 AM »
So I've been looking at comparison shots, and damn they do look pretty similar. Samsung weren't doing themselves any favors. Though how many automobile manufacturers do this and get away with it?

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #3 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 03:00:12 AM »
There's a blurry line between inspiration and blatant plagiarism. Honestly, Samsung could have been more innovative with their designs not just to avoid legal ramification but just to stand out.

On the other hand it is absurd that Apple essentially owns the rights to a "rectangular shape with rounded edges." Whoever invented dominoes should get involved!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #4 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 06:00:01 AM »
I heard about this on Saturday.  I was together with some family, and one of them brought it up.  I reacted pretty much like Pug did, and I got pounced on.  Everyone else was on Apple's side, saying they'd seen the pictures, and that Samsung was clearly copying Apple, and that Samsung deserved to lose.  I then engage my brother, the lawyer, in a conversation about ridiculous patent law in this country.  Then he goes into justifications for it, particularly defense against Chinese copying, to which I replied that the Chinese copy flagrantly, especially in the car market.  WTF do stifling overbroad patents do for us against a country that outright steals others' technology, produces it, and refuses the claims of the rightful owners?  The only thing our laws do is prevent us from innovating.  The Chinese do whatever they want regardless.

I was taken aback by how alone I was on this.  I was shocked to hear the news, and even more so at the reaction.  I guess if no one else can see the harm this decision did, we truly are destined to lose our edge as a country.

Offline scottws

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #5 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 06:19:30 AM »
I don't have much to say.  I think it is somewhat clear that Samsung definitely was inspired by the iPhone, especially when you take Touchwiz into account.  But I don't think they intended to trick consumers intending to buy an Apple device into buying their devices and I can't imagine anyone even accidentally bought a Samsung device thinking it was an Apple one.

It's pretty sad that patents are doing this.  They are intended to protect inventors, not mega corporations.  The iPhone 4S is half the phone that a Samsung Galaxy Nexus or Samsung Galaxy SIII is. 

Offline sirean_syan

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #6 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 06:31:30 AM »
...and even more so at the reaction.  I guess if no one else can see the harm this decision did, we truly are destined to lose our edge as a country.

Judging from what I see on news story comments, I'm pretty shocked as well. It bothers me that people can't see how lame it is that Apple can somehow have exclusive rights to the idea of a handheld screen. Worse yet that they more or less applaud it as if that somehow will make Apple's works better. The number of, "Now they can focus on making the next generation of iPads better" comments shows just how clueless most of them are. As if this was what limited the scope of the yearly upgrades.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #7 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 06:52:33 AM »
Apple, Samsung Both Losers in South Korea Court

Quote
...in a South Korean court, a three-judge panel ruled that both firms are infringing on each other. Both were awarded damages, and hit with with sales bans to infringing smartphones and tablets, although not any of the newer devices, including the iPhone 4S, iPad, or Samsung Galaxy S III.

According to a report in The Wall Street Journal, the judges found Apple in violation of two Samsung technology patents, and Samsung in violation of a single Apple patent. Even though both lost, Samsung has more to celebrate, as the South Korean court is the first to side with the firm in the argument that its standards-related patents are undervalued. The ruling gives Samsung ammunition in other related cases.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

That seems a little more fair with an unbiased approach to the situation, showing that both firms did some infringing.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #8 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 07:17:28 AM »
I'd second Sy's and Cobra's thoughts.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #9 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 07:58:34 AM »
Yeah, I'm also a bit shocked by the reaction particularly in North America. I wondered if it was a nationalist bias but as Cobra explained nobody seems to do shit legally when it's China.

Offline sirean_syan

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #10 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 08:33:56 AM »
I think it has more to do with the blind love for Apple folks have. If this was Microsoft with whatever tablet they'll come out with, GMV with a some SUV, Sony with portable music players, or Whirlpool with a washer and drier combo people wouldn't give a fuck. I know what Apple did to get people to love them so much, but I don't see how that worked. Yeah, you can love your iPhone and think it makes you look cool and/or successful but that doesn't mean Steve Jobs managed to cure cancer when they made a really nice touchscreen (too soon?).

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #11 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 09:23:14 AM »
I thought he was a dick when he was alive and I still do. I think your summary is apt. People worship materialism, and apparently now whoever markets their favorite brand of it.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #12 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 10:05:08 AM »
Yeah, the materialism is really bad.  There is this whole "Bring Your Own Device" (BYOD) phenomenon that certain people are pushing for.  Those people?  Apple zealots who want to bring their MacBook Pro or iPad or iPhone into the workplace because they turn their noses up at Windows and BlackBerry.  These people have no idea how poorly those devices integrate into current enterprise environments and how much trouble they make.  Then, when IT can't solve an issue on their device it's all IT's fault.  It's ridiculous.

That said, it is creating a push for platform-agnostic software and software tools.  For instance Citrix is experiencing a revitalization because Citrix makes it (relatively) simple to provide an easily supportable application and make it available on any platform that has a Citrix client available.  Then you still get things like Active Directory authentication for the app, data centralization in the data center rather than on an uncontrolled (or uncontrollable) device, and a familiar support ecosystem.

But still, it is fucking ridiculous that people have the gall to say "I am going to use what I want to do my job, and you have to just deal with it.  It's called adapting."  These people have no concern for things like data security or using economies of scale to bring down costs.  And the problem is that sometimes these people are the executives of the company.  They'll demand that IT support their MacBook Pros and then turn around and bitch when IT costs start growing out of control, even though IT had to send people to Mac OS X training, purchase expensive software like ExtremeZ-IP to support the Apple File Protocol (since SMB support on Macs is a moving target and frequently creates interoperability issues), etc.

My last employer was a publishing company.  Now, it used to be true that Macs were better for content creation than Windows PCs, but that is just a myth now.  That said, many content creators learned everything they know on Macs and think they are the best tool for the job, whether it is true or not.  So we gave in to that and all the designers had Macs.  Like 60% of the company.  But then they would hire editors, who do the copy editing in Microsoft Word, and the hiring manager would request a Mac.  We would say no, Macs are almost double the cost and the Microsoft programs are both less reliable and less feature rich than the Windows-based equivalent.  Yet they would say that it was part of the demand of the editor as part of the offer acceptance.  And if we tried to fight it, it would go up to the CEO at some point - a self-labeled Apple-lover - who would basically make us comply with the request.  We had managers that used Microsoft Excel more than anything (which suuuuuucked on Macs as of version 2008), and when we told them all their Excel problems would go away if they would just get a Windows laptop, they would refuse yet out of the other side of their mouth complain about Excel for Mac and how it doesn't have the features or reliability they needed.

All in the name of Apple love.  Its asinine.
« Last Edit: Monday, August 27, 2012, 01:28:44 PM by scottws »

Offline Cools!

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #13 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 11:08:07 AM »
Anyway...

These patents are a joke. From a hardware perspective once you move to a touch based interface a device is bound to become more minimalistic in geometry so it becomes much harder for any manufacturer to be original. There are only so many shapes you could use and it's pretty ridiculous that someone can patent a basic design (like a rectangular object with a screen) for a phone just because they were first.

On the software side there are more options in design, but if you factor in what we are used to by now after 20+ years of computer interfaces (like for example having a menu at the top or bottom of the layout) you are once again fairly limited in terms of what you can do [to stay in the realm of what works and what is familiar].


Offline ren

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #14 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 04:12:01 PM »
I wonder if this will lead to some cool new phone interfaces.

Offline gpw11

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #15 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 07:01:51 PM »
I wonder how the appeal will go.  I thought I head of an appeal?  I also wonder how this will affect Apple and Samsung's business relationship regarding components. I'd imagine not at all, but who knows?

But honestly, more than anything, I think we may start seeing phone companies (and companies in general) start patenting a lot more obvious processes and mechanisms (as if they already don't) while also relying on subtle tricks to stay away from trade dress infringements (I don't believe this is a real thing.  Like, I get what it is, I just don't think it SHOULD be a real thing).

Well, I guess Apple has more a slush fund to now.  Perfect for buying time to figure out what the fuck to do now that Jobs isn't around.

Offline Cools!

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #16 on: Monday, August 27, 2012, 07:05:08 PM »
But honestly, more than anything, I think we may start seeing phone companies (and companies in general) start patenting a lot more obvious processes and mechanisms (as if they already don't) while also relying on subtle tricks to stay away from trade dress infringements (I don't believe this is a real thing. 

I think we are already at that stage!

Offline Pugnate

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 02:24:49 AM »
http://www.mobilenapps.com/articles/3786/20120819/google-heat-files-new-patent-lawsuit-apple.htm

Quote
The battle between Google and Apple is heating up as Google's Motorola unit filed a new patent lawsuit against Apple, according to Bloomberg. The company is seeking to ban Apple iPhone, iPad, and Mac devices from selling in the United States.
Read more at http://www.mobilenapps.com/articles/3786/20120819/google-heat-files-new-patent-lawsuit-apple.htm#DhJL8vt3Z10A5lTO.99

Great. (sarcasm...)

Offline gpw11

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 10:57:09 PM »
So, I don't know how this works there, but can Samsung appeal a suit like this?  I thought they were, but it could have been I just misread something.  And I ask because it seems from interviews with the head juror that the jury decided to throw out the concept of "prior art" when making their decision.  Like, consciously said that it just doesn't apply in this case. And then talked about it in interviews. That would sure as hell seem like grounds for appeal - prior art exclusion isn't something you can just throw out because you don't want to consider it (and honestly, the reasoning he gave behind it is ludicrous). 

But the Google announcement is interesting in that it almost seems like they were holding back to see how this went.  Considering the other patent suits that have been thrown around, this is probably pretty solid if they've been holding it back. Maybe we're about to learn that patent wars are like price wars - no one wins.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 12:00:02 AM »
Yup, apparently Google have a good case! Also, the only reason -- I am not even joking -- the ONLY reason they bought Motorola, a company making losses, for 12 billion (though after tax benefits it comes down to 3), is to get court leverage against Apple, since Apple had been treading on some Motorola patents.

BTW, Samsung is going to appeal, and it should take a year or so, from what I read.

Anyway, I was looking at the case and apparently Samsung suits in official recorded meetings brought in Apple products and asked, "How can we make it look more like this?"

Even Apple says they were surprised by how blatant it all was. I think the real issue was over how similar the software is.

Oh by the way, none of this applies to the Samsung Galaxy SIII. If someone can tell me what the S3 does differently that it isn't part of the ban, I'd appreciate it.

Offline scottws

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Re: Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 04:13:33 AM »
I can't speak to exactly why the SIII doesn't infringe on Apple patents that the SII did, but I have seen them and they take far more inspiration from the Google Ice Cream Sandwich Experience than they do iOS this time around.

I imagine this is partly due to the SIII coming out well after Apple has gone thermonuclear on HTC and Samsung.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 05:08:14 AM »
I am on the s2. Great phone. To bad it won't available to Americans soon.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #22 on: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 12:44:43 AM »
Samsung paid Apple $1 billion in coins!

It's a hoax but it would have been hilarious! haha

Technically, the judgement never stipulated a payment method :P
« Last Edit: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 01:35:45 AM by Xessive »

Offline scottws

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #23 on: Saturday, September 01, 2012, 06:16:24 AM »
I found this article on the BBC's website.  It is an interview with the Apple vs. Samsung jury trial foreman, Velvin Hogan.

People unhappy with the result of the trial have really been blasting this guy because in prior interviews he made it sound like he held a strong bias and unfairly led the rest of the jury members.  In this new interview, he sort of rebuts the things people have been pointing out.  It is an interesting read.

One of the things he addresses specifically is how people have accused him of steering the jury away from analysis of prior art.  In this article he says that prior art is not a factor because the "art" is not interchangeable.  You can't take the (potentially) prior art and run it on iOS and you can't take iOS art and run it on the older devices.  That's interesting.  I'm not sure how the law on that reads and how various court cases over time have manipulated that law and what it means today.  But that argument seems silly.  It's not like the allegedly copied art on the Samsung devices can run on iOS and vice versa either.  They are different operating systems. 

It seems silly that it was or could be interpreted that the older prior art couldn't be considered an inspiration prior to an Apple patent because that art couldn't run on iOS when Apple's art couldn't run on Android!

Edit:  Aaaand Groklaw responds.  Jury man don' f'ed up.  The article focuses on what I questioned:  if the (potentially) prior art couldn't be prior art because it doesn't run on iOS, it stands that Samsung couldn't have infringed on iOS art because iOS code won't work on Android.
« Last Edit: Saturday, September 01, 2012, 07:50:12 AM by scottws »

Offline Cools!

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #24 on: Saturday, September 01, 2012, 09:13:19 AM »
My head hurt just trying to understand that.

Offline gpw11

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #25 on: Saturday, September 01, 2012, 11:27:23 AM »
I found this article on the BBC's website.  It is an interview with the Apple vs. Samsung jury trial foreman, Velvin Hogan.

People unhappy with the result of the trial have really been blasting this guy because in prior interviews he made it sound like he held a strong bias and unfairly led the rest of the jury members.  In this new interview, he sort of rebuts the things people have been pointing out.  It is an interesting read.

One of the things he addresses specifically is how people have accused him of steering the jury away from analysis of prior art.  In this article he says that prior art is not a factor because the "art" is not interchangeable.  You can't take the (potentially) prior art and run it on iOS and you can't take iOS art and run it on the older devices.  That's interesting.  I'm not sure how the law on that reads and how various court cases over time have manipulated that law and what it means today.  But that argument seems silly.  It's not like the allegedly copied art on the Samsung devices can run on iOS and vice versa either.  They are different operating systems. 

It seems silly that it was or could be interpreted that the older prior art couldn't be considered an inspiration prior to an Apple patent because that art couldn't run on iOS when Apple's art couldn't run on Android!

Edit:  Aaaand Groklaw responds.  Jury man don' f'ed up.  The article focuses on what I questioned:  if the (potentially) prior art couldn't be prior art because it doesn't run on iOS, it stands that Samsung couldn't have infringed on iOS art because iOS code won't work on Android.

This was on Digg the other day (or at least the foreman interview), and it totally seems like an invalid way of coming to a decision.  Like, I'm obviously not an expert here, but that pretty much seems to negate everything right there. And in that case, what do you do?

I'm surprised the guy's even talking about it.

Offline Cools!

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #26 on: Saturday, September 01, 2012, 01:07:44 PM »
Digg? What's that? :troll:

Offline gpw11

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #27 on: Saturday, September 01, 2012, 08:15:56 PM »
Bahahaha.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #28 on: Sunday, September 02, 2012, 03:04:28 AM »
Apple files new Samsung patent action in US

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NEW YORK - Apple has filed a fresh patent infringement action in the United States against Samsung, alleging that the South Korean company is continuing to steal its technology despite a recent court ruling.

Talk about relentless!

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #29 on: Sunday, September 02, 2012, 08:46:32 AM »
Fucking hell.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Schlotzky5

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #30 on: Sunday, September 02, 2012, 09:26:37 PM »
So, I havent been around much lately, but to let you guys know, I am now a patent examiner. I havent taken a good look at the apple patents, so I'm not going to take a side, but there are a couple points I want to make. I may have missed these, so if someone already mentioned this forgive me.

First, it doesnt matter whatsoever if apple's product looks like or works like that of samsung's. Its 100% about the claims. If samsungs product reads on apples claims, thats a wrap.

Second, big numbers make big news and everyone is talking like its a done deal, but samsung has appealed and will appeal again if they can. These things can take years and judging by the dollars at stake, I'm sure this one will too.

I agree what some of you have said about innovation, but the problem is that there really isnt an easy solution. You may not like that apple has patented a seemingly obvious smartphone function, but at the time it may not have been so obvious. Patents are good for 20 years and if when some of these patents were filed you predicted some of this stuff you would have been a genius.

Again, I'm not going to take sides because I havent read the patents and I dont have any of the phones involved. Also, I am annoyed like some of you guys at how fanboyish people get when this comes up.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #31 on: Sunday, September 02, 2012, 09:49:08 PM »
Haha me neither but for some reason I now have an insatiable urge to buy a Samsung Galaxy S3! :P

Welcome back, Schlotzky ;)

Honestly, thinking about it now, it seems like this is more of an opportunity for innovation rather than a hit. Most manufacturers were going with what is apparently popular and designing devices based on what the "market trends" dictate. Now Samsung and various others will have to get creative with their hardware and software, even if just to avoid dealing with Apple altogether.

Yeah, by the time I finished typing this my impulse to buy a Galaxy S3 has now turned into a sound decision! Yay, I'm gonna get a new phone!

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday, September 05, 2012, 05:59:41 AM »
Thsi doesn't involve Samsung directly but iPhone 5 copied and design patented in China.

Quote
Chinese knock-offs of popular smartphones are nothing new, but the GooPhone is different for one very important reason. The Chinese company producing it have succeeded in getting patents for the design in China. If that’s true, then Apple potentially won’t be able to sell the iPhone 5 in China, but worse still, they may be facing a ban on shipping the smartphone from China, effectively stalling the iPhone 5 launch before it begins.

How do you like them Apples? (apologies for the poorly thought-out pun).

Offline scottws

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday, September 05, 2012, 09:04:37 AM »
Apple didn't copy the GooPhone design.  GooPhone just took leaked images of what the iPhone 5 might end up looking like, designed their phone like it and patented the design in China.  In the U.S. it would be illegal, but in China I guess it is not.  Still, it could potentially cause a problem for Apple in China.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #34 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 06:19:25 AM »
This just in: Apple must run Samsung apology ads in the UK

Quote
A judge at the High Court in London had originally ruled in July that the look of Samsung's Galaxy Tab computers was not too similar to designs registered in connection with the iPad.

He said at the time that Samsung's devices were not as "cool" because they lacked Apple's "extreme simplicity".

Apple still needs to run ads saying Samsung had not infringed its rights.

Haha it's one of the few times in life that not being "cool" pays off :P

Offline Cools!

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #35 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »
I'm sure they'll find a way to spin this their direction.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #36 on: Friday, October 19, 2012, 01:50:15 AM »
WE APOLOGIZE TO SAMSUNG. WE SHOULD HAVE REALIZED THEIR SHIT WASN'T AS COOL AS OUR SHIT.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A sad day for Samsung. (also innovation?)
« Reply #37 on: Friday, October 19, 2012, 02:12:54 AM »
WE APOLOGIZE TO SAMSUNG. WE SHOULD HAVE REALIZED THEIR SHIT WASN'T AS COOL AS OUR SHIT.
haha basically ;D