Author Topic: My blog on freedom of speech.  (Read 4554 times)

Offline Pugnate

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My blog on freedom of speech.
« on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 07:21:54 AM »
http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/14368/azhar-ahmed-punished-for-irresponsible-freedom-of-speech/

Sorry I am not promoting the blog... just sparking discussion. So give it a read, and then look at the comments. I think people just don't get it. I am wondering if I was too ambiguous. I think it is a sensitive subject, so I had to be careful with my wording and beliefs.

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Most Muslims will be pleased to know that this responsibility has been practised even when it has come to the subject of their beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

When I said that, I meant it as an observation, and not an opinion. I wasn't agreeing nor disagreeing. I think they took it another way.

Offline scottws

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 08:15:37 AM »
I have always heard that countries like Canada and the UK have somewhat less in the way of true civil liberty than the U.S. does and this appears to be one of those examples.

As an American, the judge's comment struck me as odd how she acknowledged that there is a freedom of speech but there is a responsibility to it and you can be tried criminally for violating that responsibility.  If you can be tried criminally for something you have said, how can you claim there is really freedom of speech?

At the same time, freedom of speech is limited even in the U.S. in some respects as well.  For instance I don't truly have the freedom to say that there is an explosive device on a plane while riding on that plane or that I'm going to carry out an assassination of someone.  But that's about it.  Other than that you are free to spout off whatever you want.

Edit:  I haven't read all of the comments yet.  It seems most of them are reasonable people with interesting things to say, but what is the deal with that Zube person and why is everyone ignoring their comments?

Edit 2:  As far as my opinion on this thing, I think it is stupid this went to criminal trial.
« Last Edit: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 09:01:51 AM by scottws »

Offline Xessive

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #2 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 09:13:45 AM »
The only speech that I can see being exempted from "freedom of speech" would have to be direct threats and perhaps even public slander. Posting an opinion on Facebook, even if it is controversial, doesn't change the fact that it is an opinion. So now we have someone being criminally charged with voicing an opinion?

I am all too familiar with that on this side of the world. People have gotten in trouble for less but I would not have expected that from a Western government.

Mind you, I do agree with the judge that freedom entails responsibility, however a criminal sentence for a controversial opinion is too much. It would have been more appropriate to order his name be legally changed to "douchebag" for an allotted period of time.

Offline scottws

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #3 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 09:36:55 AM »
Mind you, I do agree with the judge that freedom entails responsibility....
I totally agree.  However, it shouldn't be a violation of criminal law for failing to act responsibly.  That isn't free speech and the U.K. shouldn't claim to have such a thing as free speech after sentencing this guy for a crime.

At best, free speech issues are a matter to be settled in civil court.  Slander and libel are two such examples.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 10:21:41 AM »
As an American, the judge's comment struck me as odd how she acknowledged that there is a freedom of speech but there is a responsibility to it and you can be tried criminally for violating that responsibility.  If you can be tried criminally for something you have said, how can you claim there is really freedom of speech?

At the same time, freedom of speech is limited even in the U.S. in some respects as well.  For instance I don't truly have the freedom to say that there is an explosive device on a plane while riding on that plane or that I'm going to carry out an assassination of someone.  But that's about it.  Other than that you are free to spout off whatever you want.
[/quote

I am just going to disagree with your examples because to me they aren't acting on a freedom of speech but a threat. You can say what you what, but if you utter a threat very loudly, you aren't being punished for violating something you can't say, but for threatening bodily harm.

Otherwise anyone could get away with serious threats under freedom of speech. That's what I think anyway.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 10:22:19 AM »
As an American, the judge's comment struck me as odd how she acknowledged that there is a freedom of speech but there is a responsibility to it and you can be tried criminally for violating that responsibility.  If you can be tried criminally for something you have said, how can you claim there is really freedom of speech?

At the same time, freedom of speech is limited even in the U.S. in some respects as well.  For instance I don't truly have the freedom to say that there is an explosive device on a plane while riding on that plane or that I'm going to carry out an assassination of someone.  But that's about it.  Other than that you are free to spout off whatever you want.

I am just going to disagree with your examples because to me they aren't acting on a freedom of speech but a threat. You can say what you want, but if you utter a threat within earshot, you aren't being punished for violating something you can't say, but for threatening bodily harm.

Otherwise anyone could get away with serious threats under freedom of speech. That's what I think anyway.

Offline scottws

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 11:24:53 AM »
Ok, but I wasn't stating my opinion but rather a fact.

Offline Cools!

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 11:44:29 AM »
Freedom of speech means nobody is going to stop you from speaking your mind, but that doesn't mean there aren't any repercussions from what you actually say. I am free to tell my neighbour that I'm going to kill him for constantly letting his stupid dog shit outside my home, but I shouldn't surprised when the cops come over because he's a pussy and saw it as a threat.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 12:04:58 PM »
Ok, but I wasn't stating my opinion but rather a fact.

I mean to say that it isn't a fact that it is a violation of freedom of speech. The cops are reacting to a threat. You are still free to threaten whoever you please, but then they have the freedom to arrest you for the threat.

By "you can say what you want" I didn't mean you specifically. I just meant you aren't breaking any freedom of speech rules when you threaten the president. That's not what they arrest you for.


Offline gpw11

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #9 on: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 01:22:45 PM »
Freedom of speech means nobody is going to stop you from speaking your mind, but that doesn't mean there aren't any repercussions from what you actually say. I am free to tell my neighbour that I'm going to kill him for constantly letting his stupid dog shit outside my home, but I shouldn't surprised when the cops come over because he's a pussy and saw it as a threat.

Well, that's kind of the catch.  Hilariously, I was once taken in for uttering threats (actually, I was taken in for being too awesome.  My best friend was taken in for telling his neighbour he was going to kick his ass.  Realistically, we were both taken in because we were 19, drunk, and they wanted to break up a sweet ass party). 

In Canada, you do pretty much have just as much freedom of speech as you do in America. The only two real limitations are uttering threats and inciting panic (these may alter by state/province). These essentially follow the principle that "Your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose", and make sense. In the case of uttering threats, it's fairly subjective and I don't know how they deal with that, but where inciting panic is concerned they have to essentially prove that you were acting criminally by inciting panic while fully aware that there was no cause to do so.  Screaming fire in a theater isn't an issue if there is one....or if you can prove that you were under the impression that there was one. These things make sense.

The main difference between Canada and America is the extention in Canada to make statements which incite hate against protected groups illegal (possibly only publicly?) You're not going to hold an anti-Semitic rally on Main Street here. The loophole is that if you can prove what you said is true, you're off the hook. Which is weird, but works I guess.

Apart from that, you're golden. Sure, you can still be sued for libel or slander for making false statements in either country, but that's a completely different area of the law and still protected speech.  The government isn't going after you - another citizen is based upon you damaging their name and reputation with false statements. You may be found civilly liable, financially liable, and persuaded to issue a retraction, but you're never actually in danger of being criminally charged.


I only bring this up because this:

I mean to say that it isn't a fact that it is a violation of freedom of speech. The cops are reacting to a threat. You are still free to threaten whoever you please, but then they have the freedom to arrest you for the threat.
 

and this:

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I am free to tell my neighbour that I'm going to kill him for constantly letting his stupid dog shit outside my home, but I shouldn't surprised when the cops come over because he's a pussy and saw it as a threat.

are somewhat false and confuse legal freedoms with natural freedoms. Because both examples are fully illegal and examples on limitations on your legally protected freedom of speech.  That said, your legally protected freedom of speech only legally protects you from persecution from the sate.  And that where repercussions come in. You still may be fired, sued, kicked out of school, kicked out of a store, whatever.  The principle isn't that you can say whatever you want, where ever, about whomever, and there will be repercussions from anyone.  It just makes sure that the government/state isn't banging on your door because you said ObamaCare is bullshit.

And then things get really hairy when alternate freedoms and further legal protections (such as employee rights) start overlapping...



 

Offline Pugnate

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #10 on: Friday, October 19, 2012, 01:38:33 AM »
Shall reply to GPW in a bit, but I am pleased with the Pakistani responses to the blog. A lot of people do believe in the freedom of speech and understand it.

Offline gpw11

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #11 on: Friday, October 19, 2012, 09:50:27 PM »
Let me just point out that I do think the case in the UK was a complete waste of time.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: My blog on freedom of speech.
« Reply #12 on: Saturday, October 20, 2012, 01:59:08 AM »
I know you do.