Topic: Christopher Dorner

[gpw11]

This whole ordeal is pretty interesting. From all accounts pre-going gun crazy, this guy seemed like a pretty outstanding individual who had a strong set of personal ethics. I guess you never really know who's going to end up with a couple of screws loose and no one should look past what he's (probably) done here, but at the end of the day the entire story is really painting someone else to look like the bad guy as well: The LAPD.

This isn't a surprise - the LAPD is notoriously controversial - ranging from incidents of lax disciplinary action leading to officers getting out of line (Rodney King) to widespread claims of corruption (Rampart).  Sure, it's a huge ass city with pretty big problems, but it just seems weird that it has this horrible reputation (which just perpetuates) whereas the NYPD, Detroit PD, and Chicago PD have their share of scandals, but always at least give the impression that the force as a whole isn't to blame - isolated incidents and the higher-ups will do their best to determine the root of the problem.  The NYPD actually does an amazing job of this considering the plague of crime the city experienced in the past and the fact that there haven't been well substantiated claims of wide-spread corruption since pretty much the 70's. The LAPD for some reason always seems to be the redheaded stepchild of law enforcement in the nation. -Gangbangers with badges.

And fair enough - public perception perpetuates and once a few well known incidents are brought into the public eye, you're going to have a hard time shaking it.  I'm sure the LAPD isn't as bad as it's made out to be, but it's still pretty amazing how ridiculous it's looking right now.

-The LAPD opens fire on a truck vaguely matching the description of Dorner's (Actually, different make, model, year, and colour...but they got the body style right) without trying to engage first.  End up shooting two hispanic women.

-Some LA county department does the exact same thing (again, different make, model, year, and colour of vehicle) and end up shooting a white male. Pretty much at the same time.

Brutal.  But what I find to be really interesting here is the incident that was the catalyst for Dorner's snap and the initiation of his police vendetta ( and it should be stated that obviously his actions are no one's responsibility other than his own): His termination from the force for lying.  Specifically, it was regarding an incident where he blew the whistle on another officer for using excessive force against a suspect. Apparently, the dude (schizophrenic) was basically just sitting in a chair, non responsive, not leaving an area he was asked to leave and ended up being kicked multiple times before the cuffs were thrown on.  Dorner told superiors, was deemed to be lying, was let go.  The interesting thing is that you can see video of the judicial interview with the man who was arrested and he substantiates Dorner's claims - pretty much exactly. Now, maybe there's more we don't know, but they're not going into that (and they should be).

I don't specifically know why I made this post (boredom)? But I really am interested to see where this goes. Dorner's killing spree is one thing, but I'm really really curious to see if the events around it lead to an investigation of the inner workings of the LAPD (again).  Because they should.   

[Quemaqua]

Haven't even heard about it. I never watch the news anymore.

Though I seem to recall the Chicago PD getting blasted by a number of folks over the last while. I know there were 2 cops making a big stink about being let go because they were straight and not doing crooked stuff other people wanted them to or something. I forget.

[gpw11]

Haven't even heard about it. I never watch the news anymore.

Though I seem to recall the Chicago PD getting blasted by a number of folks over the last while. I know there were 2 cops making a big stink about being let go because they were straight and not doing crooked stuff other people wanted them to or something. I forget.

It's pretty big.  Actually, if you've ever seen Luthor (British TV cop series starring motherfucking Stringer Bell of The Wire fame), there's an episode in the first season that is pretty similar.

Basically, disgruntled Ex-cop declares war on police and posts a manifesto online detailing why he's doing it. I'm not sure of all the details but he's shot some cops and he's most likely killed the daughter of his old Chief as well as her boyfriend (lets not kid ourselves...it was him).  LAPD has put protection on a lot of officer's houses, which has lead to the two shootings on random people driving trucks mentioned earlier.  It's pretty fucked up.

And yeah, I've read that Chicago PD is pretty bad as well.  Honestly, police are probably bad all over, and it's going to be exasperated in major cities. For some reason though it just seems like LAPD are the worst of the bunch, and to be fair they may not be - it could  just be shitty PR on their part where they don't adequately highlight that problems aren't systemic and so it looks that way. Or it could just be bad.  Who knows? 

In either case, they look REALLY fucking bad right now.  As do others, as this has led to people on sites like Reddit digging up other stories of cops being dismissed for "whistle blowing", which I don't really doubt.

The NYPD is still probably pretty bad, but the thing is that it isn't perceived that way...because every-time there's a (major) controversy there's pretty much a commission put in place to look into it.  Recommendations are made and followed, and changes go down.  It may actually be no less corrupt, but it comes off that way....or at least that it's not inherently corrupt by nature...just some bad cops. Most of this, however, is probably a reflection of downward political pressure on the NYPD.  LA may not have that same focus with it's local politicians.

I think the most telling thing is that while the Department of Justice HAS been involved in policing other forces, they've dealt the LAPD the real life equivilent of the ban hammer numerous times, and that kind of stigma just doesn't go away.  You'd think after that they'd try to really get that PR train rolling and discipline the bad cops, but it really doesn't look like they do.  And I don't think the DoJ really does these things if they have to...I mean, they didn't file charges on Sheriff Joe in Arizona and that guy is basically running Latino concentration camps.

I think the lesson we should all take away from this (and everything else) is that we really do need to watch the watchmen.  And we need to be pretty vigilant in this.  There's been a ton more incidents highlighted in the last 5 years thanks to camera phones and we're probably only a few years off of public perception changing from "Well, they have hard jobs" to "Yeah, but maybe we need more safeties in place...just in case their wrong about something".  I don't know, maybe cops with cameras on their vests that they can't motherfucking turn off would work?

[Xessive]

Dudes.. I just read up on this story.. Wow.. Pretty intense. This is a movie waiting to be filmed.

[Cobra951]

. . .

Brutal.  But what I find to be really interesting here is the incident that was the catalyst for Dorner's snap and the initiation of his police vendetta ( and it should be stated that obviously his actions are no one's responsibility other than his own): His termination from the force for lying.  Specifically, it was regarding an incident where he blew the whistle on another officer for using excessive force against a suspect. Apparently, the dude (schizophrenic) was basically just sitting in a chair, non responsive, not leaving an area he was asked to leave and ended up being kicked multiple times before the cuffs were thrown on.  Dorner told superiors, was deemed to be lying, was let go.  The interesting thing is that you can see video of the judicial interview with the man who was arrested and he substantiates Dorner's claims - pretty much exactly. Now, maybe there's more we don't know, but they're not going into that (and they should be).

. . .

If the guy kept his target list to "enemies", people who have actually wronged him (or he perceives it so) I could see him becoming some sort of twisted cult hero.  But he's also killing innocents, as torture for his perceived enemies, which makes him evil no matter how that gets defined. 

I figured he must have been wronged for real, but that doesn't matter anymore.  This is where I part company with many others.  When someone, individual or group, starts killing innocents as leverage for redressing their grievances, those grievances no longer matter, beyond their use as tools to find and kill them.  Reopening the investigation into this guy's dismissal sets a dangerous precedent.  It tells other cops or ex-cops on the edge that such destructive behavior works.  It is a huge mistake, particularly if goes anywhere in blaming others for the current events.

[scottws]

I think the guy has a legitimate beef, but he is and has gone about it the wrong way obviously.  Police forces are notorious for behaving like they are above the law.  Even when they do something obviously illegal and morally and ethically wrong, the culture of the police fraternity says you better damn not blow the whistle if you witness something and Heaven help you if you do blow the whistle.  I have met several police officers and while they all seem to be good people in general, they definitely have a sense of entitlement.

There was an incident down here last year where a Florida Highway Patrol officer attempted to pull over a Miami police officer in Broward County (Miami is in Miami-Dade county) for doing 120 mph with his lights off and driving "erratically".  The MPD cop did not pull over and it led to a brief chase.  It touched off this big feud between the FHP and MPD that involved at least one incident of a FHP car being smeared all over with poop.  Here is an article about it: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/14/3002488/miami-officer-pulled-over-for.html.

I think that's where all of this started.  The guy was probably completely right but the culture of the force prevented anything from being done about it and instead he was made to look like the bad guy and he is pissed about it.

The fact that the police are lighting up innocents just because they are driving pickup trucks in California is crazy.  I don't know all the details, but I heard at least one of these incidents the officers pulled over a car then got out and just started shooting.  I understand they have itchy trigger fingers because the guy said he was going to kill police, but come on.

And I don't think using this situation to re-evaluate organizations and how things are handled sets a bad precedent at all.  If police held themselves to the same standards they hold everyone else to, situations like this Dorner one would probably never happen.  You hate to be reactionary, but at the same time what else would incite any real change in police forces but reacting to events the public is made aware of?

[Cobra951]

Ever heard of the concept of the fruit from the poisonous tree?  There are good reasons why evidence gets excluded even when it's otherwise compelling, if such evidence was obtained illegally.  I'm not in the mood to go research the doctrine, or write a paper on it.  There is plenty on it out there, which I'm sure you could easily look up.  The case here is similar.  By allowing a multiple murderer to effect positive change on whatever led to his motives, others would be similarly encouraged, just like allowing illegally obtained evidence would encourage law enforcement to disregard all laws and the Constitution to get dirt on someone.

[Cools!]

Guy got setup and now he's out for blood. Sounds like a Hollywood movie. I feel like we aren't getting the whole story here from the cops either, as usual. Honestly, after the G20 here in Toronto I have little trust in any police force so if this guy isn't actually "nuts" and trying to have his vengeance, good for him.

[Cobra951]

Killing the daughter of a policeman, then calling the man and taunting him about having killed his daughter is far more than he is entitled to do under the worst vengeance-worthy scenario.

[gpw11]

That's the thing here: he isn't a good person and that should certainly be highlighted.  He's a cold blooded killer.  The fact that it's in response to real or perceived corruption doesn't wash that away or diluted the immoral actions.

[gpw11]

Also, fuck you, phone.

[Cools!]

Also, fuck you, po-po.