Topic: Dark Souls: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Death

[TheOtherBelmont]

Yeah, I was confused why it would sometimes give me 10 flasks and sometimes 5.

I think my biggest gripe so far is that I don't understand the game! It doesn't explain anything about its mechanics other than how to use the equipment menu!I would think a crucial element such as Humanity would have warranted a thorough explanation! All the game tells me is this vague description "This black sprite is called humanity, but little is known about its true nature. If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?" Just a philosophical quandary. It says nothing about what it does or what its used for within the context of the game.

I think I'm struggling with Dark Souls because I crave structure. Without some form of direction I'm just inclined to sit around the campfire and do nothing. All I'm told is that I'm a newly risen undead, apparently, and I have to do something... No idea what... Am I supposed to escape? Defeat a great villain? Other than having been carried over by an awesome giant crow I really have no idea why I'm there or where I ought to be going.. I just move where I can when I can despite the odds being stacked heavily against me. I think I'll just keep killing the nearby undead then respawning them and killing them over and over until I'm stronger.

Don't be afraid to use a wiki if there is something you really don't understand about the basics or even where to go. I mainly used this wiki for equipment crafting, but it seems to have detailed walkthrough information if you are really lost.  You are wanting structure and something pointing you where to go, but you have to accept the fact that this game is not going to give much of that to you.  Just go in a direction you feel is right and you will either find the right way to go or you will get your ass handed to you by enemies that are way too strong for you to be facing or you may even hit a dead end.  When your repeated deaths or a dead end happens take a different route or level up some and take the path that was giving you difficulty before.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, what you call structure I call the downfall of game design. Also maybe a sad study in what people do with freedom (which is immediately give it up for safety). I hate being told what to do and am sick and tired of every last facet of a game being detailed for me before I even get the chance to try it. This is the single biggest thing to have ruined games for me. Usually I know damned well what I'm expected to do, or I have a solid idea about how to accomplish something, and then I either have to sit in frustration waiting for the game to basically tell me how I should be playing it, or have to listen as it immediately confirms or denies my germinating thought without giving me the least chance to try it for myself, thereby removing all the joy from having the fucking thought in the first place.

I remember Pug making the same kinds of statements as you about Morrowind, but for different reasons. It all boils down to "I'm not being told where to go so how do I know where to go?" or "I'm not being told how to use something so how do I know how to use it?" I absolutely cannot understand this line of thought and have the potential to get really unkind when people use it, so... that's my two cents and I'll stop there.

This angle of design is probably the biggest reason that I love Dark Souls, because it's employed in nearly every facet of its design all the way down to the storytelling. It doesn't lay a big story at your feet, it gives bits and pieces of backstory that gradually reveal the history of the world to those willing to seek it out.

There's a reason the game isn't for everyone. It knows exactly what it intends to do and doesn't deviate from that philosophy.

[idolminds]

X, did you talk to the guy by the campfire? He should have mentioned something about the two bells you need to ring, which is your hint to go find and ring them. One is up above in the parish and the other is below in blighttown. Parish one you will get to pretty quickly, as thats the first "real" boss fight. Quickly being relative. First time getting through Undead Burg and into the Parish probably took a couple hours. Now I could probably get a new character through there in 20 minutes.

Dark Souls requires you to break out of what other games have trained you to do. You can not rush or you will aggro too many dudes and you will have a hell of a fight on your hands. Take it slow, deal with the enemies in front of you.

Don't just stick around Firelink and grind. Thats not going to help you make progress. Ignore the graveyard and go the other way up the cliff. Keep going that way and you'll end up in the Burg and be off on your way. You'll pick up several weapons and armors so you can play around with what playstyle you want. I remember watching Que play and when he switched from a sword to a spear it changed everything for him. Finding that first bonfire is such a great feeling and its those feelings you get that make DS so great. The feeling of finding safety in the hostile environment, of finally killing the enemy that has caused you so much trouble.

Stick with it and ring the first bell. By then you'll know for sure if you want to play the rest of the game or not. Not many games will give you the same feeling of triumph over your enemies as Dark Souls. We've all played our share of boss battles but nothing even compares to the feeling you get beating a Souls boss.

[Xessive]

Yeah, I need to break out of the habits that have been programmed into me by so many other games. I recall something about the two bells, one high up and one down low.

If I were to compare Dark Souls to Morrowind or any other game that gives you a sense of "do what you will" it's very easy to see the difference in the structure. In the Elder Scrolls games you're at least given a brief on how the world functions and you're left to your devices to figure out how you fit in it. Dark Souls is more like the movie Cube, I wake up in unfamiliar surroundings, have no idea why I'm there, and under constant threat of death (repeated deaths in this case). It's uncomfortable. I'm just having a very hard time deriving any kind of fun from this game.

In terms of narrative, I enjoy uncovering a story on my own. Bioshock did a decent job of letting you choose how much story you wanted, the Elder Scrolls games were all about you getting to the bottom of it by having discussions and finding journals and history books. Dragon's Dogma takes a similar approach as most open-world games where you resume the "story quest" to get more of it. In DS, other than the intro and the dude at the first campfire, and perhaps the architecture, nothing has really given any insight on the story. I'm just moving in the direction in which I am able to defeat things, other directions are certain death. I saw a dragon briefly smash part of the walkway I was on but then it just fucked off into the distance. I got more narrative pleasure out of Super Meat Boy, which can also be compared to DS for its punishing gameplay merits and fun factor!

At the time of my last post, I had already made it to the bonfire at Undead Burg. That's pretty much where I'm lodged for now, grinding away. I'll try to take your advice, Idol, and not linger too long.

Btw, thanks for the wiki link, Belmont, I'll have to start using it despite my natural stance on not resorting to walkthroughs or guides.

[K-man]

I ventured to the Giant Smith and had him forge my first boss soul weapon of the game:  Quelaag's Fury Sword.  It's fast and does a good amount of fire damage.  The only thing that sucks is the reach.  I've gotten used to the long sword.

I suppose I really need to pick out an armor set and start upgrading it.  I guess?  seems like if you're getting hit a lot at this point you're sort of doomed anyway.

[K-man]

My last few play sessions have kinda been without a specific goal in mind.  I tooled around in Anor Londo, got to the place where you can invade Laurtec and kill him.  I tried that a number of times yesterday and failed miserably.  Came back last night and got him on my first attempt.  Game's real funny like that.

Coming back down through Sens to go resurrect the fire keeper at Firelink, I accidentally fell to the bottom.  OH MAN, I totally forgot I left 3 titanite demons down here.  Got the first one down no problem, but the two that help each other out are sort of disastrous to take on.  I ended up sort of cheesing the first one by hitting him and then running around the corner until he reset.  But by the end I had enough to fully upgrade the Fury Sword.  It's pretty nice.

I tried the Asylum Demon again a few times.  No dice.

So firelink's back up and operational, I have a maxed out boss sword, and my one attempt at the anor londo boss ended about five seconds after I stepped into the door.

[K-man]

OK, Anor Londo is outclassing me big time.  Currently I am not good enough with my parry/riposte to make short work of the silver knights.  It's getting a little frustrating.  I tried Smough and Ornstein probably ten times last night, and never even got close.  I tried summoning but no one took me up on it. 

This is much more frustrating than the Capra Demon.  At the very least I was able to almost kill him a few times.  I haven't even managed to get one of these guys down to half health.  You can't even concentrate on hitting one guy for more than a second or two, because the other one will pwn you for it.

So I'm back in darkroot farming souls to level up.  I think I went a little bit too endurance heavy on my build, so I'm going to farm a few points into vitality, maybe a few in dex.  I'm reluctant to put any points into any sort of "magic" school because I just don't use it.

[TheOtherBelmont]

OK, Anor Londo is outclassing me big time.  Currently I am not good enough with my parry/riposte to make short work of the silver knights.  It's getting a little frustrating.  I tried Smough and Ornstein probably ten times last night, and never even got close.  I tried summoning but no one took me up on it. 

This is much more frustrating than the Capra Demon.  At the very least I was able to almost kill him a few times.  I haven't even managed to get one of these guys down to half health.  You can't even concentrate on hitting one guy for more than a second or two, because the other one will pwn you for it.

So I'm back in darkroot farming souls to level up.  I think I went a little bit too endurance heavy on my build, so I'm going to farm a few points into vitality, maybe a few in dex.  I'm reluctant to put any points into any sort of "magic" school because I just don't use it.

Don't feel too bad about the Ornstein and Smough fight.  It is one of the hardest boss fights in the game.  The fact that you are endurance heavy is going to help you though, because you are going to be rolling and dodging A LOT.

[Quemaqua]

It's so funny how different the experiences have been. Places where I had a lot of trouble that you guys didn't, and the other way around. I feel like I generally prepared and read up on the game far less than you guys, and while I had a few tricky spots that were rough, like the Moonlight Butterfly, Discharge, and Quelaag, I generally seem to have found the game easier than you guys. I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first try and didn't generally have an inordinate amount of trouble with Anor Londo in general. Though the area definitely taught me some shit and put me through my paces, especially at a couple specific non-boss points.

It's interesting, though... I wish I could remember what my stats were and at what level I was when I did certain things, what gear I was using, etc. You guys really seem to have put more into that so I'd have expected you to do better. Though at the same time I did eventually settle on a build I wanted to use, and toward the end of the game solidified it pretty much, and that was also tailored to specific gear.

[idolminds]

Well I've done a few things with gear, but honestly not a lot. I went from Drake Sword to Astoras and...thats about it. Astoras is +3 but Im out of twinkling titanite so I cant upgrade it any more until I find where they drop. My elite knight armor bits are +3 but thats the only upgraded armor I have, everything else is stock.

Im about SL52 or something. 24dex, 20str, 20end. I think I should boost my endurance some more, though. I want to wear the stone armor without rolling like a cow.

[Pugnate]

I remember Pug making the same kinds of statements as you about Morrowind, but for different reasons. It all boils down to "I'm not being told where to go so how do I know where to go?" or "I'm not being told how to use something so how do I know how to use it?" I absolutely cannot understand this line of thought and have the potential to get really unkind when people use it, so... that's my two cents and I'll stop there.

Maybe it was someone else Que? I liked the open design of Morrowind. In fact, that's why I got Xessive to play it and I think he got hooked on the game because I was pushing it. Maybe I remember it wrong? It was a long time ago.

What I really did bitch about was Morrowind's bugs and how bad it ran on my system. I think all of you had Nvidia cards and I had an ATi and the game just had a problem with my specific video card. Xessive would come over and notice how crap the game ran.

[Quemaqua]

Ugh, yeah, the game was not a technical masterwork. Bethsoft has really improved in that arena as they've gone, but Morrowind, while not the dark ages of Daggerfall, was still pretty fucking bad at times. And definitely not happy with ATI cards.

I don't know, maybe I'm misremembering. I could have sworn it was you and that you said it about Morrowind, but I fully acknowledge I could be wrong. My memory is crap. I've known a lot of people who've said the same about it, either way. It just personally gets my goat because I love freedom and I hate (as detailed earlier here) having the joy of discovery and thought removed from me just because someone else who might play a game would prefer not to be required to think.

[K-man]

I came home Friday evening after dad's surgery in need of release after about 8 hours of pent-up anxiety.  So on the way home from the hospital I grabbed a sixer and, despite the presence of company, put in Dark Souls.  My sister-in-law's fiance is a gamer, so I was showing him the ins and outs of the game while farming Darkroot.  Anyhow, He wanted to see some real action so I went to Anor Londo.  Figured what the hell, he can watch me get my ass kicked by Smough and Ornstein again.  I fared extremely poorly the first time, but decided the second I'd finally try to summon someone.  It made all the difference.  He kept one occupied while I did my thing with the other.  I was one hit away from killing super Ornstein and I died.  BUT, during the "you are dead" screen the summoner struck the final blow.  Thankfully I got credit for the kill.  There were no drops, but I was able to come collect my souls. 

I've leveled Dex quite a bit, and it's made a lot of difference in the quality of my build.  I figure I'm going to eventually put my final 2 points into endurance, concentrate on dex, with a sprinkling of vit going forward.

Oh, and Idol, you were mistaken about the lordvessel.  you can warp using it the minute you access it.  And it is glorious.

[K-man]

So apparently Ornstein drops a ring if you kill him last.  I guess since I died before he did not drop it.  I was able to get his soul, however.

The ring doesn't really look that useful for my style of play, so whatever.

[K-man]

I had a fairly productive play session last night.  I wasn't sure where to go, so I decided to run around Darkroot again since I had leveled substantially since the last time.  I managed to kill all the big cats and make my way to Sif.  Sif was a breeze this time.  I merely stayed under his feet, hacking away until he died.  Seems to be a pretty sound strategy.

I was also able to level 3 more times.  I think I want to grind my way up to 40 dex and 40 end, then pump the rest of my points into vit.  I've got 9 points in dex to go and 2 in end.  My SL is like 75 or something.  I wanted to focus on some magic school, but I never use it.

[K-man]

Also, Que, I remember when you were playing this game and it's all you could talk about.  I was like "damn, can't he chill out about this fucking game?"

Now I know...Now I know.

[PyroMenace]

That's how I feel with all of you now.

[K-man]

Well then install and play it!

Resistance is futile!

[PyroMenace]

Maybe I'll play during the meet so Idol and Que watch all the dumb shit I do. Maybe we can live stream it.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, it's not a game you can play casually, I don't think. You either get in and stay in, or you don't get in at all.

[K-man]

The past few days have seen me finally tackle the other asylum demon and the duke's archives.  I found a great farming spot in the painted world of Ariamis, so I got my soul level to 90, pegging endurance and dex at 40.  Quelaag's fury sword +5 is a freaking beast now!

I want to +15 my balder side sword since it scales with dex well.  But it'll be hard to put the fury sword down.

Funny story that I've told on IRC like 8 times now.  I went human in the Demon Ruins the other night to kindle a fire.  Afterwards I beat the lone capra demon and went exploring along the narrow path leading down to the area near the boss.  BOOM, got invaded.  He spawned down the path from me, and I could see by his gear I was no match.  I went running back up the path, finding a spot along it that had crumbled and fallen out.  I positioned myself right behind the pit and raised my shield.  He completely took the bait, falling to his death.  I instantly get a PSN message from him titled "LOL!".  best moment.  I wish i could have somehow captured it.

[TheOtherBelmont]

Hahaha that invasion story is great!  I remember shield bashing an invader off of a cliff in the forest because he wasn't paying attention to me pushing him towards it and he kept backing up trying to avoid my spear thrusts.  I got a hate PM for that one but it was still hilarious.

[Quemaqua]

Man, I had some really great invasion stories too. Almost all of them ended with me dying, but still.

[idolminds]

I'm missing out on being killed by others. It makes me sad. Sorta.

[K-man]

Playing the PS3 copy online right now is a waste of time.  In the past few days this glitch has happened where anything that glows (bonfires, torches, items, souls, stains, spells, lightning attacks, etc etc) flicker in and out right now.  That makes it pretty well impossible to find items in new areas, dodge magic/elemental, etc etc.

I hope it's patched ASAP.  I don't want to get this far and then not finish.

I found a video of what I'm experiencing:

[Quemaqua]

How bizarre. I'm sure they'll patch it, but yeah, one would certainly hope they don't drag their heels on that.

[K-man]

Considering past history, I'd say dragging their heels is a given.

It sucks too.  You know what glows in Dark Souls?  ALL THE IMPORTANT STUFF!

You can see in that video I added how distracting it is.

[K-man]

So they did server maintenance on the 8th, which people were hoping would resolve the glitch.

It didn't.  Starting to get a little frustrated.  I'm going to be forced to finish the game in offline mode.  I really enjoy the features playing online offers.

[MysterD]

Since Borderlands 2 is done, been back to playing this.

So, I just defeated this morning in a boss fight two big monsters....

(click to show/hide)

...The Bell Gargoyles - all thanks to the help of Knight Solaire!
I was pretty much letting him do a lot of the work to take them on - and I was just attacking the Gargoyles from behind and doing massive damage.
Pretty easy, actually.

EDIT -> 6/7/2013:
Quelaag

(click to show/hide)

...And finally, Chaos Witch Quelaag goes down! Took a few days worth of learning her patterns and whatnot - but she is done.

Circular motions around her when locked-on and close; 2-handing a sword when she's wide-open and attacking her; running away to heal up w/ Estus flasks when necessary when I'm far away and she fire-blasts; run she she drops down hurt before you does that radius blast - yeah, those all did the trick.

EDIT -> 6/8/2013:
Demon Ruins

(click to show/hide)

So, it was easy enough to defeat Ceaseless Discharge earlier this morning, once I figured it out - ran my way up; got behind mountain and used it more or less as a shield. So, then I poked out; ran; let him swing; 2-hand weapon and attack him; repeated procedure (hoping he wouldn't destroy my mountain wall here).

But, God....all those Capra Demons down below...Ugh, brutal. First one is fine, but multiples? Baaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!
I couldn't take it down there - too many of them.

And now, I am back in Blighttown - and no matter which way I go - i.e. try to go back to Depths; go to Valley of Drakes; or go to New Londo Ruins - forget it. I'm dead. Looks like the way I came into Blighttown (through the Depths) is my best way back out, if I can get it down - or well, since I'm going up, maybe I should say "if I can get back up there."

[K-man]

The PS3 patch fiasco coupled with my dad's illness and death prevented me from playing this in any real capacity for the past few months, but I"m ready to get back into it and see it through.

Despite the fact that I've still got some image retention in my plasma from the previous play.

[gpw11]

I'm fully into this now. Like, I can't stop.  I did initially have a bit of a hard time getting into it, but damn...it's pretty amazing.   

I guess I'll be posting in this thread as well...

[TheOtherBelmont]

I'm fully into this now. Like, I can't stop.  I did initially have a bit of a hard time getting into it, but damn...it's pretty amazing.   

I guess I'll be posting in this thread as well...

TELL STORIES OF YOUR PLAYING FOR MY AMUSEMENT!  Glad to hear you are enjoying it.

[gpw11]

I will do!  It doesn't seem like Spoilers are necessary in this thread, so I'm not going to use them.  I'm hella early anyways.   

I don't have any super amusing stories so far. I'm playing as a warrior/knight (does this matter?) and have been enjoying it pretty well once I've gotten the hang of it (although I can't parry/riposte for the life of me.

I died extremely often early on, but managed to follow the lead of the online tips/hints/whatever you call them and a hillariously helpful blood stain (some guy shooting arrows off in to the distance, getting attacked and falling off a ledge) to figure out that shooting the dragon's tale on the bridge gets you the awesome Drake sword/Soul Calibur (come on, it looks EXACTLY the same).  I kept on running through the area with the tail (over and over again...you know, because dying) and kept on getting messages to attack the tail but nothing would happen (same animation over and over again without anything).  Finally I got a blood stain in the area and checked it out in order to see someone attacking the tail twice before getting attacked by that skeleton up there (I presume) or simply dropping off the edge.  So, while on the phone and not really thinking I started just shooting arrows at the tail repeatedly. BAM! DRAKE SWORD!  Which is pretty cool and totally bad-ass but could really benefit from having that stabbing plunge attack.

The acquisition of the Drake sword (and arrows/bolts) were a bit of a game changer for me.   In the next section I cleared out the enemies in the upper portion and just picked off the bore with arrows. EASY! I was having a hell of a time with spearmen, but learned that switching to double handed stance worked wonders.

I have been pretty steadily progressing since.  The twin Gargoyle boss was pretty funny because it was my second time summoning someone (I seem to run around hollow the majority of the time) and they literally went in threw some lighting bolts at the boss and killed both of them before I even swung once. Kind of a buzz kill, but sure. Rung the first bell, went through Darkroot Garden, found out that killing those armored giants was pretty easy (one at a time), and blitzed in to pilfer a corpse for some sweet ass Elite Knight Armour...which is cool but heavy and seems like it slows my roll down (is this a thing?)

I then ran into the Moonlight Butterfly which seemed like it was going to be tranquil and fun but ended up being THE WORST. Arrows did little, bolts even less, throwing knives? HA.  Oh, wait...firebombs are pretty badass. I was left with the option of getting really good at dodging and just getting my attacks in while the boss was at rest or killing it with firebombs...so I ran all the way back to the Undead Merchant and bought a ton of firebombs.  VICTORY.

And that's pretty much where I am.   That route ended up being a dead end and I don't want to farm souls in order to buy the seal to unlock that glowing door in the forest, so I think I'll investigate the Darkroot Basin path I just found. Still using the Drake Sword but I just tried out a halberd and it seemed fun.  Hope to find a more powerful one so I can switch. 

The online system is great.  I haven't been invaded, but summoning ended up being helpful and the messages are awesome.  Blood stains not AS useful, but still good. I never would have found the bonfire in Darkroot Gardens if I didn't see a message about the fake wall.  Actually, I didn't know that fake walls were a thing in the game so now I'm wondering how much I missed, because there were like two more in the next area.

I just realized that there's way more to FireLink Shrine than I previously thought, so that seems cool and I now have another totally new area on my list to explore (Also, that graveyard...which is terrifying).

And, finally being powerful enough, I revisited the two black knights I had found while backtracking to buy the firebombs. The first (in the Undead Burg) was super easy all of a sudden and was guarding a ring.  Sweet!

The second (atop the tower just before the boar) was definitely more difficult and almost took me down save for a last minute roll and backstab that I managed to fluke into. To be fair, I should have been able to kill him anyways, I just dropped the ball and over exerted myself, leaving my defenses open at the start.  The shitty thing is that this one wasn't guarding anything at all.  Lame.

[K-man]

You may not want to bother with it right now, but that glowing door will be worth your time to unlock sooner than later.  It's a fairly excellent early-game soul farming point.

[gpw11]

I welcome all sorts of tips like this. 

[Quemaqua]

Yay, more people playing Dark Souls. Except boo, more people playing Dark Souls makes me want to play it again. I love you, Dark Souls. I can't wait until I'm independently wealthy and can actually afford to fuck around playing video games all day.

Speaking of... is the sequel supposed to be PS3 or PS4?

[gpw11]

I believe PS3, 360, and PC.   And all I'm doing at work is planning how to go about progressing.  I've been putting all my upgrade points into Str, Dex, and End (with a bit of Vit), but maybe I should branch out a bit?   I think I may want to get into some spells at some point?

[K-man]

I'm level 90 something and only threw enough points into something to get a spell.  the rest is endurance, str, dex, and vit. 

Also another tip if your TV is plasma, make sure to give it breaks.  I learned the hard way.

[gpw11]

Playing the PC version, so not a problem. I guess it's the HUD items?  Weird.



And good to know about the stats.  If I bump up endurance high enough will I get faster with heavier armour, or is that not how it works?

[TheOtherBelmont]

If I bump up endurance high enough will I get faster with heavier armour, or is that not how it works?

That is how it works.  More endurance makes your roll and run speeds faster with heavier armor.