Topic: So I'm going vegan.

[Cobra951]

Explain this one, baby-killer.

Jesus.  Life for both?  I had to do a double take on the link, make sure it wasn't The Onion or similar.  That is way excessive--Stalin-totalitarianism excessive.

[Xessive]

Suddenly, I feel like you get what being a Muslim in today's world is like! hehe

I get you, man, it is a touchy subject. If something is in poor taste it's on the one who posted it, not you.

It doesn't make much sense to me either that vegans and vegetarians get a lot of flack for it. In Arabic we have a saying that basically goes "dress like people dress, eat what you like to eat." It essentially means that perhaps people can judge you for what you wear but no one has the right to judge you for what you eat (unless you're a cannibal or something so exceptionally wrong).

[Quemaqua]

Yes, except that Muslims make a religious choice, and like any other religious believer also have their own versions of morality and theology that conflict with others. That at least seems like a more fertile field for conflict than someone who simply decides he'd prefer not to participate in the killing of other living things and would rather not eat burnt corpses at every meal. You know? Religion is so far-reaching. Veganism isn't. You just don't eat or wear animals or animal byproducts.

It's just so simple I don't understand why people care. I wouldn't naturally even try to find a reason but for the vehemence of the backlash I've gotten from some. The only thing that seems to make much sense is a need to defend what they know and have done for so long, regardless of facts. Or maybe guilt, that they're somehow aware of what they're contributing to and don't want to admit it's wrong because to do so would be to force a change or admit that they care more about the temporary pleasure of food than they do about more important matters. And these are judgments I make only because I've been forced to in attempting to figure out why the fuck I'm attacked constantly for a personal choice which shouldn't offend on any level, even from a moral standpoint.

But I get the kind of reasoning in the prior post all the time. That chick could have had the same digestive problems long before going vegan (I've had digestive problems for upwards of probably 4 or 5 years now that hasn't cleared up since going vegan, nor ever cleared up when I was vegetarian, and are just as likely caused by my former diet than by genes or anything else, who knows), could have issues with genetic disease, could be living or have lived somewhere that messed her up due to an immediate environmental cause, she could have one or more unknown allergies, God knows what. And who knows how much worse off she'd be if she wasn't vegan? A ton of common gastro problems are often traced back to meat, which doesn't pass through human intestines well (natural carnivores have straighter, very short intestinal tracts to pass meat quickly—humans have intestinal tracts akin to those of natural herbivores, long and with lots of places that meat, which is difficult for the body to digest, can get stuck in, leading to colon blockage, cancer, appendicitis, all kinds of fun stuff). And regardless, there are absolutely no studies that show vegans to be less healthy than others in almost any respect that I'm aware of, but for a couple that were simply far too small to be usable. All the others are neutral or positive, mostly the latter. There is virtually nothing a vegan has to worry about nutrition-wise as we get generally get more consistent and more available nutrient resources than others do. And it's not really fair to blame veganism as a source of issue when I'd say probably the majority of vegans ate like everybody else for 20 or 30 years prior to switching, thus incurring all kinds of residual issues that simply switching isn't going to magically clear up after funneling decades of shit into your body. I ate whatever I wanted for over 25 years, and was mostly vegetarian for probably less than 5. If something happens to me now, you can pretty much bet it's related to those several decades and not the couple months I've gone vegan.

Anyway. Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox, my ire is just up over some other shit in addition to this.

[gpw11]

Jesus.  Life for both?  I had to do a double take on the link, make sure it wasn't The Onion or similar.  That is way excessive--Stalin-totalitarianism excessive.

I know, right? It did say that it was an automatic life sentence, which I guess goes with killing a baby even though its not like they drop kicked it or anything.  I think it's certainly harsh in this case and hope there can be some appeal.  As just plain dumb as they are it wasn't malicious and sentencing should reflect that.

It's just so simple I don't understand why people care. I wouldn't naturally even try to find a reason but for the vehemence of the backlash I've gotten from some. The only thing that seems to make much sense is a need to defend what they know and have done for so long, regardless of facts. Or maybe guilt, that they're somehow aware of what they're contributing to and don't want to admit it's wrong because to do so would be to force a change or admit that they care more about the temporary pleasure of food than they do about more important matters. And these are judgments I make only because I've been forced to in attempting to figure out why the fuck I'm attacked constantly for a personal choice which shouldn't offend on any level, even from a moral standpoint.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a part of why people are going to bring it up; it's blowback stemming from the fact that a lot of vocal vegans are judgmental assholes. Well that and people are going to poke fun at anything different than them. It's what people do.

Don't let it get to you, people aren't going to stop, just figure out how to blow past it and not take it seriously.

[Cobra951]

Yes, except that Muslims make a religious choice, and like any other religious believer also have their own versions of morality and theology that conflict with others. That at least seems like a more fertile field for conflict than someone who simply decides he'd prefer not to participate in the killing of other living things and would rather not eat burnt corpses at every meal. You know? Religion is so far-reaching. Veganism isn't. You just don't eat or wear animals or animal byproducts.

It's just so simple I don't understand why people care. I wouldn't naturally even try to find a reason but for the vehemence of the backlash I've gotten from some. The only thing that seems to make much sense is a need to defend what they know and have done for so long, regardless of facts. Or maybe guilt, that they're somehow aware of what they're contributing to and don't want to admit it's wrong because to do so would be to force a change or admit that they care more about the temporary pleasure of food than they do about more important matters. And these are judgments I make only because I've been forced to in attempting to figure out why the fuck I'm attacked constantly for a personal choice which shouldn't offend on any level, even from a moral standpoint.

. . .

I have no problem with anyone making personal choices.  My problem starts when they try to impose their morality on others.  If you look impartially at what you posted, you must admit that it is highly judgmental.  You are likening the American traditional diet to atrocities.  Such an intolerant tone can easily spread to a crusading bloc, which could then threaten the freedoms enjoyed by others, freedoms that you probably feel they shouldn't have.  Therein lies the perceived threat.

I've used the vegan movement as an example of why we shouldn't judge past generations with current standards of morality.  I can easily see a future society where the vegans have won politically, and they look at their ancestors--us!--with disdain.  We would fare no better in their eyes than slave-owning early Americans look to us.

Edit:  gpw ninja'd me!

[Cools!]

Chill.

Just because you made a post about how awesome your experience has been thus far doesn't mean we can't comment on what it's like dealing with friends and acquaintances that talk about their diets. Note that I didn't say specifically vegans, because there are plenty of people who like to preach about how great some new diet they are on is and assume that everyone around them doesn't know shit.

It's funny that you mention getting shit for being a vegan and quickly start to judge the people around you. You know why people don't like vegans? Because of the constant preaching about how much better their choice in diet supposedly is. That's why I made the comment about my friend. She preaches and bitches about everyone else's supposedly horrible diet, yet is constantly sick because she doesn't know shit. Does that make all vegans that way? Of course not. Do I tell people about my specific dietary choices? Nope, and I don't waste my time telling them what they should or shouldn't eat either. No drama.

Again, chill. We are allowed to comment on things you post and you don't have to constantly put yourself in a corner and rant like this is the worst possible thing that has ever happened to you. I'm assuming that when you made this post it was to talk about your experience and progress and maybe get other people interested (you have btw, I'm actually eating even more meat now). I also assumed that after all these years we as a community are comfortable enough around each other to be able to take jabs at each other without creating more pointless drama.

[Cools!]

But I get the kind of reasoning in the prior post all the time. That chick could have had the same digestive problems long before going vegan (I've had digestive problems for upwards of probably 4 or 5 years now that hasn't cleared up since going vegan, nor ever cleared up when I was vegetarian, and are just as likely caused by my former diet than by genes or anything else, who knows), could have issues with genetic disease, could be living or have lived somewhere that messed her up due to an immediate environmental cause, she could have one or more unknown allergies, God knows what. And who knows how much worse off she'd be if she wasn't vegan? A ton of common gastro problems are often traced back to meat, which doesn't pass through human intestines well (natural carnivores have straighter, very short intestinal tracts to pass meat quickly—humans have intestinal tracts akin to those of natural herbivores, long and with lots of places that meat, which is difficult for the body to digest, can get stuck in, leading to colon blockage, cancer, appendicitis, all kinds of fun stuff). And regardless, there are absolutely no studies that show vegans to be less healthy than others in almost any respect that I'm aware of, but for a couple that were simply far too small to be usable. All the others are neutral or positive, mostly the latter. There is virtually nothing a vegan has to worry about nutrition-wise as we get generally get more consistent and more available nutrient resources than others do. And it's not really fair to blame veganism as a source of issue when I'd say probably the majority of vegans ate like everybody else for 20 or 30 years prior to switching, thus incurring all kinds of residual issues that simply switching isn't going to magically clear up after funneling decades of shit into your body. I ate whatever I wanted for over 25 years, and was mostly vegetarian for probably less than 5. If something happens to me now, you can pretty much bet it's related to those several decades and not the couple months I've gone vegan.

I like how you assume to know my friend better than I do.

[Quemaqua]

You have friends? 90% of your IRC conversation is bitching about the perceived inadequacies in the human beings around you with the explicit contention that you're better than all of them. And you talk to me about being judgmental? Jesus Christ. All I asked was for you to have some fucking tact, not change your mind.

Whatever my opinions are, I have no interest in attempting to convert the unwilling. Though I will admit it gets hard to just blow past it, as gpw puts it, when everybody makes it their personal mission to fuck with you. Again, the degree to which I've experienced antagonism over this single issue from people who had never before exhibited that behavior—even over religion or politics—is crazy. Obviously I have my own personal convictions about the way I feel things should be, so yeah, that automatically implies on some level, like any other choice one makes, that I disagree with those who make an opposite choice. I didn't go vegan for no reason, so of course the above line of thought demonstrates my viewpoint. If I didn't have the viewpoint I wouldn't have made the choice. But that's not a direct action or active persecution toward anyone else. I haven't said anything judgmental to anybody about what they do or don't do. For fuck's sake, I ate just like everyone else for over 98% of my life. Who am I judging? I just changed my mind about the utility of the status quo. I haven't even once suggested to friends or family members that they do anything different than they've ever done, and the earlier extrapolation was merely an example of my attempts to figure out what makes people so hostile, what makes them suddenly change just because they find out this one thing about me. To go from friendly to downright confrontational because I prefer to wash my hands of the cessation of life and spend my money on things that don't contribute to it. That's no different than boycotting a company because you don't like the way they do business or because they funnel money to a cause you don't support. So why the emotional response? It seems to me there must be something deeper going on to make people so full of bile over someone else's ideal that has no effect on them whatsoever, and I can't figure out what it is. Vegans are like 2% of the citizenry in the US and UK, and though the number seems to at this point be doubling every year or so lately, it isn't as though anyone is suddenly going to have to change their diet because all their favored foods have disappeared.

Honestly wish I'd kept my fucking mouth shut at this point. Just thought it would make for some interesting conversation, which is definitely not what this is any longer.

[Cools!]

You have friends? 90% of your IRC conversation is bitching about the perceived inadequacies in the human beings around you with the explicit contention that you're better than all of them. And you talk to me about being judgmental? Jesus Christ. All I asked was for you to have some fucking tact, not change your mind.

That's clearly uncalled for. You are hardly in IRC to even know what I or anyone else talk about. Seriously, name even one case where I talked about the people around me in such a way? And at least with the regards to that chick I mentioned I shouldn't have called her a friend since that hasn't been the case for some time now.

Whatever my opinions are, I have no interest in attempting to convert the unwilling. Though I will admit it gets hard to just blow past it, as gpw puts it, when everybody makes it their personal mission to fuck with you....

Here we go again, taking things to the extreme. I don't even know where this is coming from...

Honestly wish I'd kept my fucking mouth shut at this point. Just thought it would make for some interesting conversation, which is definitely not what this is any longer.

No, you just need to stop bitching and make everything a huge issue for you to deal with. You took my stupid comment and turned into this giant rant about how oppressed you are as a vegan. I mean, really? Of all the issues in the world to bitch about? Like I said above, chill, especially now that you are with the gang.

You know what's sad? It's that I assumed that after knowing each other for this long you would know when someone is just taking a jab at you, making a joke, etc. Since when are we supposed to be so serious about everything? This is supposed to be a place were we can talk about anything, even if occasional that means posting things that are stupid.

[gpw11]

I blame Keebs and his Asianism for all of this.

[Xessive]

Ok, guys. This is turning into a shitstorm. I hate shit, especially when it's flying around.

I love you both, so let's stop taking jabs at one another and look past any transgressions and indiscretions and steer back to the key discussion.

[Cools!]

No, not done here.

There were plenty of jokes and jabs right from the start in this thread, yet mine suddenly crossed the line. Apparently I wasn't tact enough. Well if you didn't like my comment you could've just ignored it, brushed it off and moved on. Or hey, here's an idea: you could've just messaged me personally about and that would've been the end of it. Instead, lets open the flood gates and write so much nonsense that I still don't understand how most of it relates to my post.

But who cares? It doesn't matter what you post as long as you post something! Right?

[gpw11]

Yeah!  Talk this shit out like that pussy Keebs would never do!

[Pugnate]

Keebs you asshole.

[Pugnate]

You have friends? 90% of your IRC conversation is bitching about the perceived inadequacies in the human beings around you with the explicit contention that you're better than all of them. And you talk to me about being judgmental? Jesus Christ. All I asked was for you to have some fucking tact, not change your mind.

That seems pretty harsh and personal, considering Cools didn't do anything you haven't done before many times before in video gaming threads. I am not condoning any baiting in this thread on your new lifestyle, but I feel you've reacted a little too strongly.

Anyway, no harm done. Let's not anyone do the "I am done with OW" thing. Think of the children.

Is it possible that you are feeling a bit sensitive because your body is finding the adjustment to a no meat lifestyle difficult? I am speaking from experience. I tried the no meat thing a few years ago, and it made me really cranky and moody. I didn't give myself a chance.

I have been thinking about the whole vegan thing. I wish I could go vegan, not because I don't like meat, but because the demand for meat from human beings has resulted in industries, that supply chicken, beef, mutton, and pork, which create a lot of suffering for animals only because it means a significantly higher profit margin.

Could the suffering be avoided?

Yes.

Could the animals be kept in an environment where they are happy, have the freedom to move, live, and breathe? Yes.

Unfortunately, giving such an environment to the animals would result in costs rising to crazy levels. As of this moment, pigs are kept in farms which drive them crazy mentally and physically. These are intelligent beings which don't deserve to suffer. Chickens live in their own filth, and aren't treated like living creatures, stored in confined quarters like a non-living product such as a block of cheese, only given enough resources so that they can survive.

Competition for meat is tough as it is, so you can't have any business risk raising costs by improving conditions.

Why do we ignore these truths?

Because it helps us swallow our food better.

So while I think Cools deserves an apology, on an unrelated note, I can understand the self-righteous attitude of some vegans. I get it. By buying any product from the animal industry, we are adding to the evil. What is happening is just not natural.

[idolminds]

For a thread about a dude just not eating meat, this turned surprisingly hostile.

[Pugnate]

[sirean_syan]

Anyway, no harm done. Let's not anyone do the "I am done with OW" thing. Think of the children.

I know. Where the hell am I supposed to send Mabel when she wants to start going online?

[Pugnate]

I am a bit disappointed this thread is dead. People need to resolve things rather than just saying their piece and disappearing when the shit hits the fan. Really.

[PyroMenace]

Unless someone is going to say something more constructive on being vegan, I don't think anything else can should really be said. I honestly don't think Que has come off threatening at all until some mean spirited posts came up. So yea, just agree to disagree.

[Cobra951]

The subject can't be discussed rationally because it involves conflicting belief systems--exactly like religion.  Maybe we should add veganism to the list of subjects you don't mention in mixed company.

I hate what happened here.  But happen it did, and only two people can make amends for it.  I'm not one of them.

[Cools!]

I honestly don't think Que has come off threatening at all until some mean spirited posts came up

I sure hope you aren't saying that my original post was "mean spirited". Like I've already said before, the thread had plenty of "non-serious" posts. There was absolutely no reason for him to snap like he did out of nowhere. What he said about me in his last post was completely uncalled for. Disappearing afterwards isn't going to help. Especially when you are the forum admin...

The subject can't be discussed rationally because it involves conflicting belief systems--exactly like religion.  Maybe we should add veganism to the list of subjects you don't mention in mixed company.

There was no conflict about veganism here.

This isn't the first time this has happened and I'm tired of having to walk on eggshells on this forum when dealing with this. We've known each other for a long time now to be able to talk about whatever we want around here, to disagree on topics yet still have respect for each other, to call out people when things go out of hand and not worry about them disappearing.




 

[ren]

Has anyone noticed how Kale is the new hipster food? Last year it was all about quinoa but that seems to have died down and Kale has taken over full blast.

[Cools!]

Haha, I just watched a food show on Russian TV about it.

[K-man]

Que, I don't give a shit what you eat. I am happy the vegan thing is working out for you.

I will say this.  We have a few vegan/vegetarian friends.  Most of the friend-circle entertaining happens at our house.  It makes a party menu more difficult to make sure they are accommodated.  But we always ensure they are.  More often than not though it feels more tacked-on than anything. 

But seriously, I'd personally break a cow's neck Rambo-style if it meant having some of the top-tier ribeyes I've had in my lifetime.

[Xessive]

It's common enough around here but lately it's been the trendy cabbage-replacement anywhere I go. Most restaurants/cafes have also been serving up kale and/or rucola salads.

[gpw11]

Has anyone noticed how Kale is the new hipster food? Last year it was all about quinoa but that seems to have died down and Kale has taken over full blast.

Weird, I apparently went about this ass backwards. I just found out about quinoa and think its the bomb for a rice replacement.  Kale, on the other hand...only good for chips.

[Xessive]

Speaking of funky healthy green stuff, anyone ever tried Malungay? Also known as Drumstick leaves or Moringa.

[sirean_syan]

Here's a funny story. Ground moranga is used as a water purification additive in some places. It works like a flocculant which means it effectively neutralizes surface charges on suspended particles in water allowing them to come together forming larger, easily removed, bits of solid material. I'm actually having some students test it out today along with more "traditional" chemicals.

But yeah, when I was looking this stuff up it was being billed as the most nutritious plant out there pound for pound.

[Xessive]

Here's a funny story. Ground moranga is used as a water purification additive in some places. It works like a flocculant which means it effectively neutralizes surface charges on suspended particles in water allowing them to come together forming larger, easily removed, bits of solid material. I'm actually having some students test it out today along with more "traditional" chemicals.

But yeah, when I was looking this stuff up it was being billed as the most nutritious plant out there pound for pound.

Yeah, everything I've read about it has been overwhelmingly positive.

I started reading up on it when I checked the leaves and the seeds of the tree in our yard and discovered that is indeed a Malungay tree. Apparently, the Filipinos and Indians in the neighbouring area often pass by and pick some leaves and small stems from its branches which go over our fence. No issue for me there, I mean it's for everyone! But that could be a testament to it being the real deal.

[Cools!]

Quinoa freaks me out every time I eat it because it looks like there are tiny worms everywhere.

[ren]

Weird, I apparently went about this ass backwards. I just found out about quinoa and think its the bomb for a rice replacement.  Kale, on the other hand...only good for chips.

You are so behind the times. Which surprises me because you're from BC which as far as I know is the Hipster capital of the country, possibly universe. Then again you're also really old so I'll let it slide. In a year you're going to find every place is selling smoothies with either Kale blended into it or on the side as garnish.

[Quemaqua]

My apologies for the ruffled feathers. I already explained what I was thinking and feeling, but you guys know that I have a tendency to get angrier than I should sometimes. A personal failing. Sorry, Cools... shouldn't have taken a shot at you like that regardless of any disagreement. Hope we're still good?

Wasn't exactly running off, just felt it was better for me to chill the fuck out elsewhere for a bit, and I got involved in work and sort of forgot to come up for air until Pyro sent me a link a few days ago. I often spend too much time on the Internet, so sometimes I try to just... leave. It almost always results in my feeling better about life.

Quinoa is pretty good, has a nice array of uses. Kale can be awesome or horrible... it's something you really have to learn to cook with, to play to its strengths. There are also a number of different kinds, and they can differ pretty widely from one another. It's great if you know what you're doing, but if you don't, the stuff can truly be tough and flavorless.

[Cobra951]

Welcome back, man.  I'm glad to see you home again. 

[Quemaqua]

Good to see you guys too! I never leave for long, no matter the reason, and it's always good to be back. What I really need to do is quit Facebook.

[Cools!]

Welcome back!

[gpw11]

I don't know if anyone is interested but that chick I know won her body building cookbook and went on to write an ebook about vegan diets which allow you to still build muscle....in like a week. 

I wouldn't do it, but if anyone hates money I can post a link to where you buy it.

[Quemaqua]

I've actually discovered quite a number of vegan people that are really into bodybuilding or fitness in general. A friend of mine out here is one of the most ripped dudes I know and has been vegan for like 15 years or something, and there are several bodybuilding teams, and a number of athletes, a couple MMA fighters, weightlifters, and strongmen (and obviously chick versions of the same). Since I really don't know a lot about that stuff in general it's been interesting reading some of the science behind it all and listening to their rebuttals against commonly held beliefs about what you "need" to build muscle and recover from workouts.

[Cools!]

[Quemaqua]

Don't ever believe a potato. Lying little bastards turned on the Irish, and even though they claim to be vegetables, you always see them hanging out with meat.