Author Topic: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again  (Read 4833 times)

Offline gpw11

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Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« on: Sunday, June 02, 2013, 09:39:58 PM »
I don't know if anyone has really been following it, but the US Government is taking Apple to court over a breach of anti-trust law (specifically, their involvement in a price-fixing scheme). The basic rundown is that Apple was about to release the iPad and wanted to start getting into the ebook market but was a little worried that they wouldn't be able to compete with Amazon and Barnes & Noble because of the relationships they had with publishers ensuring lower prices (Buy 100,000 copies of our paperback and we'll sell you the ebook rights at a reduced price) and because of the pricing methods that Amazon and Barnes & Noble used for ebooks - exactly like selling physical books. Amazon buys the rights to sell the ebooks, pays a set rate for each book sold and could then go on and sell them for whatever they wanted. Most ebook retailers would sell them for a discounted rate, mainly because the largest were also trying to move e-readers. You would also often see sales and promotions pretty much offering the ebooks at cost. It made sense.

Apple didn't like this because they didn't want to compete with the low prices Amazon and others were selling for.  Fortunately for them, publishers also didn't really like it because they felt it devalued physical books as well, even though they wouldn't be seeing any more money from higher prices on ebooks.  So, what happened and why is Apple being taken to court?

Well, in the world of ebooks there is a thing called "Agency Pricing".  I first noticed this when the monthly savings codes I was being sent for my ebook reader store all of a sudden wouldn't work on a large portion of the books in the store....the books from "Agency Pricing" publishers. Pretty soon that was most of the books....and pricing went up as well.  "Agency Pricing/The Agency Model" is pretty simple: there's a contractual agreement between the publisher and the retailer that enables the publisher to dictate the price the final good is sold to the customer. Great for the publisher, horrible for the consumer as there can no longer be any sales or discounts or anything else.

Where does Apple come in?  Well, the publishers would have obviously loved this model all along but had no way of pushing it. Retailers like Amazon and B&N are their main clients and represent the bulk of where their revenue comes from - paper and electronic. Any publisher who tried to push it would just get stonewalled "Oh, I need to sign this contract to sell your book? Nah, I think I just won't sell it. Have fun hawking it at flea markets." Publishers really had no leverage.   And that's where Apple came in (apparently). The publishers only have leverage if they all instituted the program at the same time and stuck with forcing it on retailers. As competitors, however, this level of collusion is pretty blatantly illegal, especially when it amounts to a black and white price fixing scheme. So, Apple stepped in, basically facilitated the agreement as the middle man between all the companies.  I'm not sure how this took place but I imagine it was by basically saying "We want to work on the Agency Model and will only sign with you if all your other retailers work on the same model.  By the way, we have agreements from the other major publishers stating that they're willing to sign if you are."  Simply put, Apple orchestrated the cross-publisher agreement.

So, everyone signs, leverage switches completely, and now Amazon HAS to work under "Agency Pricing" or else no major publisher will work with them. Great! Except the cost of eBooks went up like $5 for me pretty much overnight and promotions dwindled and dried up.

I haven't bought an ebook since.  I have no idea how long publishing companies have had their heads in the sand, but prior to this it was actually hard to illegally download a book that wasn't a top ten seller from the last year or two in whatever format you wanted (that isn't .PDF).   Fast forward a couple of years and it's a hell of a lot easier - Sure, consumer adoption is to blame for some of that, but for a lot of us it's more - that extra $3-5 represented the tipping point.  The point where all of a sudden it's like "Okay, yeah....I guess I'll spend 10 minutes looking for this book in order to save myself $15."   

Government intervention like this is always a touchy subject but this is almost like a bailout: it went from the point where myself and all my ebook owning close friends just bought books because it was cheap and easy to where none of us do. Hopefully, this ends and the ebook market will actually become viable again.


Offline Cools!

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #1 on: Monday, June 03, 2013, 12:01:47 AM »
Good. I never bought an ebook because they always seemed just a tad too pricey considering you can find paper books for really cheap and you have to pay for the reader device if you go that route.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 12:27:54 AM »



I JUST pulled this off of the Kobo site. Brilliant move publishers.  Guess what the value of a book is to me now?  $0, because it's actually MORE work at this point to legally download a copy of your best seller and you still have the balls to think this is a great idea.

This was actually the first book I looked at because it was on the front page.  I checked a few more:

-Watership Down - Cheaper in trade paperback than ebook, although there was also a lower priced ebook version for some reason
-Catch 22 - Cheaper in paperback and trade paperback than ebook
-A Dance with Dragons - About a dollar more for hardcover.  Cheaper in paperback, although that's not out yet (preorders)
-Boxed sets for both Hunger Games and a Song of Ice and fire were bout $5 cheaper in Ebook.  That's cool.


Here's the thing. When people like Jim Sterling with the Xbox make a huge deal about the cost of digital versions of goods I usually defend the supplier to a point. See, when you buy a video game, you're not paying for the material value of that object.  Manufacturing costs and shipping costs have an insignificant impact on the overall price because what you're actually paying for are the production costs...the (this is a bit of a bastardization of the term) "fixed costs" of the salaries involved and the resources that went into making that code, the R&D into whatever engine it's running on, the marketing, and some of the projects that didn't make it through development.   This is totally different than a good like a tool. 

I have a hammer from when I used to work on site.  It's a nice hammer that I got for free but were I to pay for it it would cost roughly $160 - $200. Why pay 10X more for a hammer than if you just bought any other hammer?  Because it's made out of titanium and hickory rather than spruce and steel, plastic and steel, or just steel. So, it's stronger, lighter, and absorbs more impact. The marginal costs of the higher grade materials increased the costs by directly increasing the value -- both psychologically and empirically. Of course, I'm sure there was also a premium there just because of the perception of value, but that's something else entirely. This is in stark contrast to how pricing of video games work.  In these cases, the development of the good is the cost decider, not the physical resources or the material object.

With a book, it's much the same way as a game.  I've seen the breakdown and although the physical cost of producing and shipping a book is higher than that of a game, it's still a pretty small percentage (well, substantially higher, but still....) yet, at the end of the day, you do generally get the same experience whether you read the book digitally or on paper.  You got the story, you experienced the same thing as everyone else.   So, what's the difference between books and games in my mind?  Perception of value -- which is the number one thing which drives quantity demand in markets based on goods without physical value.

Video games have the advantage of being able to sell themselves on the experience they provide alone for a price, which although contested, is pretty much unavoidable. Consumers as a result have been conditioned to a point to associate the video game experience with a market transaction, whether it be renting or buying. So, Valve/Microsoft/EA/whoever can say "Yes, I'm  not actually giving you the physical disk and charging the same price, but you have to understand you're not paying for the actual disk anyways.  You're paying for the costs to develop what's on the disk." And they're not actually lying.  And rather than pass the savings from not shipping a good to the consumer they can just absorb it to "counteract higher development costs" or further stave off the effects of inflation on games prices (the second point I think has a slight bit of merit). They get away with it.  Not because it's some injustice, but because unlike games journalists, they have an understanding of the business they are in and know that the market equilibrium point for selling a big budget game is at a certain price...because that's where the perception of value is.  And that's why they do it.  And that's why they get away with it: not because anyone really believes them or because no one has a choice, or even because it has to be that way, but because that's what the consumer associates with the value of a videogame.  And still, they're not just raking in money hand over fist...and this is where guys like Jim Sterling really get lost - because competition is still present and budgets are set based upon this, so costs skyrocket like an arms race.

But back to books. What do video games have that books don't?  That very perceived value.  Because all my life it's been conditioned that if you're playing a video game for free SOMEONE is getting shafted. Movies, music, and video games have that perceived value which basically says that you should probably be paying to experience, but that's not something which has been associated with books. Goddamn governments set up giant buildings you can walk into, pull out a book for free, read it and bring it back without paying a dime.  In MOST countries, royalties aren't payed out on that.  Publishers get the initial sale and that's it.  And to a certain extent, publishers were okay with that a bit, because libraries also presented to them a fail safe market.  But do you know what best selling authors and their publishers hate?  Yeah, fucking libraries. Because each one represents potentially hundreds of lost sales.

The value of a book to me was always pretty low.  Sure, I'll pay 15-20 dollars if I'm about to get on a flight or NEED a book.  I can think of a few books that I paid close to $50 for, and a couple more that I have bought multiple times. But those were all issues of convenience or nostalgia. I needed that book now and didn't want to wait, I needed some book for something I was right about to do, or I wanted another copy of this book I had years ago and really liked because I may read it one day. I've rarely ever walked into a book store and browsed...because fuck, why not just do it for free.

And unlike movies, or video games, or music, book publishers had a grand opportunity here where they could turn that around. Value perception was pretty much non-existent and a new equilibrium could be set. When they're not paying the $3 to print and ship that $9.99 paperback, they can offer it for $6.99 or less.  Throw in some sales, cut out some middle men and all of a sudden they have more people actually paying for fucking books and they can offer it for $3.99 or less.  Not just because it hits the right price point, but because it could have been actually easier than trying to get it for free.

I really do think that they dropped the ball in a major way and hopefully this is the catalyst which gets the book industry back on the right path.


TL;DR

Consumers already don't perceive books as having inherent value in the same way as other forms of entertainment. Publishing industry could have taken advantage of e-readers to appeal to new markets through convenience and set new price points, thereby creating profitability through new markets.  Went the other way.  Probably fucked. Steve Jobs helped.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 05:06:26 AM »
Never liked ebooks. Still don't. Never will.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Xessive

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 06:03:49 AM »
Never liked ebooks. Still don't. Never will.
Damn.. Well, gotta go cancel all those ebooks I was makin' for ya!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 09:03:03 AM »
[too long; didn't post]

Why Amazon Is Within Its Right to Remove Access to Your Books

Amazon Removes E-Books From Kindle Store, Revokes Ownership

What is always important to me when "buying" digital content is to see a clear path to keeping it under any circumstances.  After all, it's "mine".  I insist on being able to back up my content and use it independently of any online connections to third parties.  I'm apologizing for the quoted words, not because I think they are somehow untrue, but because they are at the heart of the argument.  By eviscerating the concept of ownership, media companies gain a tremendous amount of power over their markets.  It should come as no surprise that they have engaged in an exhaustive, long campaign to do just that.  Most consumers don't care enough about the consequences.  They only see the convenience, until things go wrong and their eyes are opened.  Then they bitch plenty.  Too late.  They already surrendered their rights in exchange for that convenience.

I have never bought an ebook.  I probably never will.  By the way, gpw, movies and perhaps other media are available at public libraries too.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 09:44:38 AM »
Daaamn.. That's a pretty good summary of why I never delved into ebooks too. At least not from Amazon or B&N. I would understand if it was a subscription service, for example $50 a month gives you access to Amazon's library of ebooks and then they removed a certain book; but they're charging BY THE BOOK and reserve the right to remove that book even though you paid for it?! I'm not condoning piracy but I would certainly understand if their customers resort to it.

I still think an argument can be made for access rights; if you paid to access a book but they deny your access shouldn't you get your money back? For example, if I pay an entrance fee to a swimming pool, I obviously don't own the pool but I own the right to access it for the allotted amount of time. However, if I'm denied access within that period I am entitled to get my money back (unless I was at fault by doing something publicly offensive or breaching the terms and conditions).

This is a common fear with "games as a service" versus actual products. The whole "you don't own your games" issue. It makes sense for access services like (the now defunct) OnLive or Gaikai, but I would be pissed off if Steam or Origin suddenly removed a game from my library for any reason.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 11:25:39 AM »
Scott has already talked about one of the big problems: he didn't want to sign off on changes they'd made to the Steam user agreement, but if he didn't, everything he'd paid money for was no longer available to him because he could no longer use the service. You give up your rights, you can expect them to be handily violated pretty much every time. Most people lack the foresight to see this, as Cobra said, and will only figure it out after it's too late. By which point of course it will be too late for many.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline gpw11

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 08:45:15 PM »
Why Amazon Is Within Its Right to Remove Access to Your Books

Amazon Removes E-Books From Kindle Store, Revokes Ownership

What is always important to me when "buying" digital content is to see a clear path to keeping it under any circumstances.  After all, it's "mine".  I insist on being able to back up my content and use it independently of any online connections to third parties.  I'm apologizing for the quoted words, not because I think they are somehow untrue, but because they are at the heart of the argument.  By eviscerating the concept of ownership, media companies gain a tremendous amount of power over their markets.  It should come as no surprise that they have engaged in an exhaustive, long campaign to do just that.  Most consumers don't care enough about the consequences.  They only see the convenience, until things go wrong and their eyes are opened.  Then they bitch plenty.  Too late.  They already surrendered their rights in exchange for that convenience.

I have never bought an ebook.  I probably never will.  By the way, gpw, movies and perhaps other media are available at public libraries too.

Yeah, you can get movies and CDs (hah) at public libraries as well.  I don't think it has quite the same effect though just because of the longstanding view that watching a movie is worth paying for while reading a book is something that you only pay for if you're really into it, at least among a fair portion of consumers - and that probably stems from decades of having to pay to watch movies but having the cheap option always being present for books.

As for the rest of it, I do agree that you have a point and a good one but that isn't a problem that's inherent with ebooks; it's a problem that's inherent with Amazon's Mobi format.  The Kindle is the walled garden of ebook readers and the only one I know of that doesn't play with ePub, and if you're working with epub you're pretty much doing the same thing as buying a DRM free mp3, you pay money, you get a file.  Back it up because if you lose it you're fucked.

Another completely viable option is to just buy a reader that doesn't phone home. There are, after all, a million of them.  I know for a fact that my reader can't be wiped remotely and at the very worst I will just be unable to redownload the file if I deleted it and my account is banned. I'm cool with that.

The problem here is that retailers and publishers in these cases aren't correctly stating what it is that you're getting. That little "buy" button in amazon's store should say something else to relieve the confusion, and a lot of people would be cool with that, especially if it was at a lower price point...as it should be.  Charging a fee to access content without owning it is fine, but it should be done clearly so people know what they're getting into because, yes, you're right - it's not the same as owning the good.

It's a complicated digital world out there and it's good there are vigilant people out there making sure we probably don't get too screwed.  Sadly, I'm not one of them because I'm too busy getting free shit through nefarious means. THANKS INTERNET.


Offline Cobra951

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday, June 04, 2013, 10:50:08 PM »
To be sure, most anything can be obtained DRM-free.  You just have to be careful when buying digital stuff.  I'm fine with doing my own backups too.  The bigger issue is that we're headed into more closed spaces like iPhones and Kindles.  Even Microsoft wants to go there very badly.  They would like nothing better than to take away that internet freedom you mentioned, force a services & closed devices business model (a la Apple) on everyone.

Edit:  Xessive, to be fair to Amazon, I believe they did refund people for the loss of 1984.  It's still shocking.  Imagine someone walking uninvited into your house, taking away a book and leaving some cash in its place.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, June 05, 2013, 08:25:41 AM by Cobra951 »

Offline Cools!

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday, June 05, 2013, 12:44:57 PM »
Reading this thread reminds me of why I never bothered with ebooks: too confusing. Which store is the most open? Which device? Which format? Why is it so expensive? Etc. Easier to just get a paper version or download it online.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday, June 05, 2013, 11:14:19 PM »
Reading this thread reminds me of why I never bothered with ebooks: too confusing. Which store is the most open? Which device? Which format? Why is it so expensive? Etc. Easier to just get a paper version or download it online.

This is a pretty valid point and there's a definite corrilation between ease of use and constriction with ebooks.  If you buy a Nook or Kindle, the easiest option is the one that people are worried about with the taking away of the rights and all that.

Offline sirean_syan

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday, July 10, 2013, 10:33:44 AM »
Apple seems to have lost the first round.

No damages have been discussed yet. Is it possible to make things go back the way they were?

Offline Xessive

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Re: Sweet, buying Ebooks might be viable again
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday, July 10, 2013, 01:26:24 PM »
Speaking of eBooks, The Humble eBook Bundle 2 just got 4 more books added to it.