Topic: The Steam Universe is Expanding

[idolminds]

Bitches LOOOOOVE countdowns!

Last year, we shipped a software feature called Big Picture, a user-interface tailored for televisions and gamepads.
This year we’ve been working on even more ways to connect the dots for customers who want Steam in the living-room.
Soon, we’ll be adding you to our design process, so that you can help us shape the future of Steam.

So Steambox time? Guess we'll find out on Monday when the countdown ends.

Also Geoff Keighley had this to say on twitter:

@geoffkeighley
Here we go: Valve just emailed me to say it will make three (3) announcements next week.

[Quemaqua]

I believe *cares* was what we used to say in the nineties.

[idolminds]

Heh, yeah. It will be interesting to see what they've come up with, but I can't imagine it being anything revolutionary. It might just be a little box to stream from your PC to TV. I doubt they are going to go up against PS4 and Xbone with a real deal console box.

[PyroMenace]

I actually do care what they are up to, but announcements from them are typically underwhelming.

[gpw11]

If one announcement isn't a Half Life game, well, that'd actually be pretty funny.

[idolminds]

First up...SteamOS, a new Steam flavored Linux.

If the Steam client is anything to go by, I don't think I want this to be running my entire system.

[Xessive]

First up...SteamOS, a new Steam flavored Linux.

If the Steam client is anything to go by, I don't think I want this to be running my entire system.

Yeeeeah, if you can just go ahead and not do that, that'd be great.

I'm all for a streamlined interface experience but the entire OS?! That's overkill. Unless the second announcement is that it will be on a Steam Box, then it makes sense. It's very unlikely, even for me, to circumvent my entire OS just to accommodate a SteamOS unless I had a machine that was dedicated to nothing but Steam-related games. Even then, not all my games are on Steam.

[gpw11]

I think that's the point of it. It's meant for set top boxes and media centers in the living room rather than PCs.

Probably a sign that they aren't backing an official, unified Steambox (mistake)

[W7RE]

What about games that don't have Linux support, or aren't even on Steam? Notch said something about liking the idea and not liking Windows 8. Well, Minecraft isn't on Steam. doesn't that mean a PC running Steam OS won't run his own game?

[idolminds]

It depends. If Valve wants SteamOS to take off in any meaningful way then it needs to be just a full Linux install. Then you could run Minecraft in java no problem. If they locked down the OS to where you're essentially booting into Steam and thats it then it's just for a set top box setup.

[Xessive]

What about games that don't have Linux support, or aren't even on Steam? Notch said something about liking the idea and not liking Windows 8. Well, Minecraft isn't on Steam. doesn't that mean a PC running Steam OS won't run his own game?

A good question. A lot of major titles don't have Linux support, despite Valve putting in efforts to make all of their games available on Linux.

I do like their movement of having a game that is multiple OS compatible, rather than buying (and re-buying) the same title for each platform. Right now, you can buy games that will work on PC, Mac, and Linux in a hassle-free installation via Steam.

I suppose in the end it will depend on the devs and publishers; if there's enough of a push for Linux support I'm sure EA, Ubisoft, Activision, and all the major publishers will inevitably push for it too. It's just hard to move past Windows right now.

[Cools!]

So basically right now SteamOS sounds like an alternative to running some other media server (with the addition of having games) on a dedicated box connected to your TV.

[Xessive]

I would love to see someone mod a Playstation or Xbox (whatever generation) with SteamOS, y'know just for the heck of it

[MysterD]

I do like their movement of having a game that is multiple OS compatible, rather than buying (and re-buying) the same title for each platform. Right now, you can buy games that will work on PC, Mac, and Linux in a hassle-free installation via Steam.

Amen to that.

A good question. A lot of major titles don't have Linux support, despite Valve putting in efforts to make all of their games available on Linux.

....

I suppose in the end it will depend on the devs and publishers; if there's enough of a push for Linux support I'm sure EA, Ubisoft, Activision, and all the major publishers will inevitably push for it too. It's just hard to move past Windows right now.

Probably doesn't help that many of us probably have LOTS of games built to run on Windows.

So, A LOT of questions here.

After Win 8 flopping, more or less - will M$ stick around and keep doing OS's?
Will Win 9, if they do one, get even more closed w/ Metro interface?
Will Microsoft force everything to be sold through their store/marketplace?
Are there going to be more DirectX updates PC-side?

Will Steam games work on both Linux and SteamOS?
What will they use for a graphics & sound - OpenGL and OpenAL, I'd guess?
I don't do much mobile games or anything - but I'd guess they might be using some form of OpenGL and OpenAL there?
What does the PS3 use for graphics and sound library?
I'd guess if ALL Non-Microsoft platforms are using OpenGL and OpenAL and Valve wants to push OpenGL/AL - Valve might be onto something here.

A LOT of questions that I - and probably many others, too - just don't know the answer to here...

[Xessive]

I've been thinking about it some more. As a streaming service, it becomes irrelevant what OS platform the original game is on as long as it is on Steam, regardless of the specs on the SteamOS machine (as long as it can support streaming and HD video). Conceptually, it's not different from the Vita TV.

It's more or less something that gives us the opportunity to build our own streaming entertainment box. For me, this would alleviate the trouble of hooking up my rig to the TV each time I want to play certain games.

The primary concern I would have is latency. Even though, some studies and experiments have shown that local streaming can achieve about 100ms latency, which is not bad at all.

Btw, does anyone know how good gamepad support is on Linux?

Despite the set of games I had on my old Ubuntu box I never actually tested gamepads. Unfortunately that box has long since been decommissioned. Hmm, perhaps I'll rig up an old netbook with the latest Ubuntu.

[idolminds]

Steam Machines is the next announcement. They will have a very limited beta of 300 people, and the group to sign up already has about 10,000 people in it. Launch next year. Specs will be open to manufacturers so it seems like you will get a choice of Steam Machines all running SteamOS. But no specs or any real details about what the boxes are, but there will be boxes.

[gpw11]

Specs will be open to manufacturers so it seems like you will get a choice of Steam Machines all running SteamOS

I really think this is the downfall of the idea to a certain point. The big draw I think of the Steam Machine is that it simplifies a concept - the pc running on your TV.  The streamlined OS works great for that, a dedicated, pre manufactured box works great for that, but having no set hardware specs is kind of detrimental to the idea. I mean, I DO see the benefit to it, but having set hardware specs would really make it simple for people who want to get into this kind of thing but aren't familiar with the PC market.

[gpw11]

I don't know how I feel about that controller.  It'll really be something I'd have to try because I could see it being awesome, but I could also see it just sucking.

[idolminds]

Steam Controller

I don't know what to make of that thing.

[Xessive]

Steam Controller

I don't know what to make of that thing.

That looks frickin' weird. Why trackpads?! Does Valve not realize that touch-based controls suck donkey balls??

EDIT:
I don't know.. I'm skeptical but I'd have to try one to see how they actually implement it.

I mean, I was skeptical about Swype on touchscreens but now it's my preferred touchscreen typing method.

And.. No Half-Life 3 announcement.. Ballsy.

[sirean_syan]

EDIT:
I don't know.. I'm skeptical but I'd have to try one to see how they actually implement it.

I mean, I was skeptical about Swype on touchscreens but now it's my preferred touchscreen typing method.

Yeah, but have you tried any of those fake joystick games on the touch screens? They suck, pretty hard. I know these are concave and have feedback, but even if that is precise to a millimeter your thumb isn't going to detect that. We have D-pads and sticks for a reason. Haptic feedback is just an expensive solution to a non-existent problem.

[gpw11]

Honestly, I think I would have a lot better of a time aiming on this in a FPS or third person action game than with an analogue stick, but I think it would ultimately be a lot worse for pretty much any other purpose.  Replacing traditional controls with touch screen ones in mobile ports is horrible, and I don't really see how this would be much different. 

[Xessive]

Yeah, but have you tried any of those fake joystick games on the touch screens? They suck, pretty hard. I know these are concave and have feedback, but even if that is precise to a millimeter your thumb isn't going to detect that. We have D-pads and sticks for a reason. Haptic feedback is just an expensive solution to a non-existent problem.

Oh yeah, virtual joypads are horrible! We have to take extra measures to alleviate that problem by buying and connecting gamepads to phones and tablets. I don't know anyone who doesn't hate those. That's my fear about this controller. A clear advantage the PS Vita has which, for some obtuse reason, Sony is refusing to take advantage of. Imagine Android on a Vita.

I've tried playing FPS games with a trackpad as well; it's not fun. How does it compare to an analogue stick? I don't know, they're both equally terrible options but if I had to choose one I may have to go with the trackpad just because I'd be able to do more with it after I'm done gaming.

There's a reason that gamepads are the way they are right now: tactile controls are the best option whenever possible.

The question Valve is trying to answer, I suppose, is how to completely replace the mouse/keyboard experience for the couch experience without compromising the level of control they can offer. This seems to be their answer. Time will tell if it's sufficient or if the quest for the ideal controller will resume.

As much as I love my PS3, I still prefer the X360 controller and its buttons. When a screen prompt says "press X" I'm pushing the button on the left as opposed to the bottom on the PS3 gamepad. I think that's mainly due to my emotional attachment to the Dreamcast, which the Xbox controllers emulate so well.

[Cobra951]

Steam Controller

I don't know what to make of that thing.

I do.  Yuck!

[idolminds]

Some devs say some things.

[gpw11]

I do.  Yuck!

I just noticed the actual button layout and changed my mind.....this is shit.

[Quemaqua]

I still contend there's nothing better than a PS3 controller. 360 controllers aren't bad, but Sony's been smart in sticking with what works.

This controller looks horrible. Why are two of the buttons on the left of the touchscreen? That thumb in most games is constantly engaged, more so than the other even in dual-stick shooters and such since it's usually used for movement (which is always of primary importance), and this has been the standard for years. That makes zero sense.

[Xessive]

Valve's Controller Has Been Tested. Here Are Some Impressions.

It seems that the haptic feedback of the trackpads made a big impression. The idea of that feedback is that it's supposed to create the feeling that the trackpad has edges on it, perhaps the outlines of buttons, if that's how it is programmed for a specific game. Those trackpads are sensitive to movement and pressure.

Spelunky requires Whip, Jump, Bomb, and Rope buttons. We configured the controller to play like an Xbox controller. So the left circle pad was once again used for the directional buttons, and the right circle pad was used as A, B, X, Y buttons in the orientation that you find on an Xbox Controller....I played through Spelunky and the controller worked great. As I was playing I was describing to the engineers the twitch movements that go into Spelunky... The Steam controller handled this just fine.

Hmm, interesting. It seems the trackpads' functionality is contextual and shifts depending on the program. Supposedly, there is a physical difference felt with the haptic feedback.

Ok, I know that's supposed to be a "feature" but why do I feel like that's a step in the wrong direction? Nothing beats pushing an actual button to achieve the desired effect.

[idolminds]

The other thing that would worry me is the haptic stuff means moving parts. Fancy moving parts. How much use do you get out of it before it wears out or breaks? Then you're stuck with a controller with no feedback.

[Cobra951]

Valve's Controller Has Been Tested. Here Are Some Impressions.

Hmm, interesting. It seems the trackpads' functionality is contextual and shifts depending on the program. Supposedly, there is a physical difference felt with the haptic feedback.

Ok, I know that's supposed to be a "feature" but why do I feel like that's a step in the wrong direction? Nothing beats pushing an actual button to achieve the desired effect.

I get that.  It's a neat idea, if you need control without real control devices.  The fantasy is a surface that actually raises and forms tactile buttons or whatever is needed.  I suppose this haptic approach is a lot more practical, given that real buttons are abandoned.  But why do that?

Having said that, I would welcome more precise analog control.  Tiny thumbsticks just don't have enough precision or travel to replace a mouse.  They're fine for controlling vehicles, but not human-like motions.  If they can nail that, I'd be all for it.

[Xessive]

Of the three announcements the most intriguing for me would have to be SteamOS. I'm curious about how much Steam is integrated into Linux to form the new interface. Based on Valve's claims, if the OS has impressive network performance and functionality it could potentially serve for more than just games.

Plus, if I have the OS then I can just as well make my own "Steam Machine," so the second announcement is not really all that exciting. Since I'm not looking for a new controller, the third announcement may as well be white noise to me right now too, even though I am curious about how well it will perform.

[idolminds]

Valves prototype machine specs released.

So for our own first prototype Steam Machine ( the one we're shipping to 300 Steam users ), we've chosen to build something special. The prototype machine is a high-end, high-performance box, built out of off-the-shelf PC parts. It is also fully upgradable, allowing any user to swap out the GPU, hard drive, CPU, even the motherboard if you really want to. Apart from the custom enclosure, anyone can go and build exactly the same machine by shopping for components and assembling it themselves. And we expect that at least a few people will do just that. (We'll also share the source CAD files for our enclosure, in case people want to replicate it as well.)

And to be clear, this design is not meant to serve the needs of all of the tens of millions of Steam users. It may, however, be the kind of machine that a significant percentage of Steam users would actually want to purchase - those who want plenty of performance in a high-end living room package. Many others would opt for machines that have been more carefully designed to cost less, or to be tiny, or super quiet, and there will be Steam Machines that fit those descriptions.

Here are the specifications for Valve's 300 prototypes.

The 300 prototype units will ship with the following components:
GPU: some units with NVidia Titan, some GTX780, some GTX760, and some GTX660
CPU: some boxes with Intel : i7-4770, some i5-4570, and some i3
RAM: 16GB DDR3-1600 (CPU), 3GB DDR5 (GPU)
Storage: 1TB/8GB Hybrid SSHD
Power Supply: Internal 450w 80Plus Gold
Dimensions: approx. 12 x 12.4 x 2.9 in high

Thats about $1300 on newegg to replicate.

[Xessive]

Pretty wild specs.

Didn't Valve mention somewhere that the Steam Machines were not intended to compete with high end PC's? It doesn't get any higher end than a GTX Titan!

[idolminds]

Whats strange is its all off the shelf PC parts. Its a PC. So the "Steam Machine" beta is more for the OS than for the hardware, and they could just release the OS to everyone to test if they wanted.

[idolminds]

Eh.

[W7RE]

My biggest problem with the idea of a SteamOS for gaming is that it won't include all PC games. With Steam running in Windows, I can run any PC game. ANY GAME. If it's not on Steam, I can add a shortcut in Steam and still run it from there. I run Blood from a Steam shortcut that launches the game in DOSBox. Will that work in SteamOS?

Then there's also the loss of other Windows programs. Most of my PC gaming happens with MMOs, so I often alt-tab to an IM program, one of three voice chat programs, a media player, a web browser, Notepad for taking notes, sometimes even Calculator. When I'm really into an MMO, I run a Ventrilo and connect to a server before I even start the game, and can chat with friends while waiting for servers to come up or whatever. With SteamOS I'm assuming we'll only have a web browser and whatever in-game voice chat Steam offers. Running in a dedicated Steam environment will likely limit my machine's functionality by a LOT. Oh yea, and just how many people are going to want to dual boot? I don't want to, and the average Joe who got a computer for school and then got addicted to WoW or DOTA won't want to. It would be way more convenient to have a Steambox sitting next to a Windows PC on the same desk, but then it's just another machine to deal with. If every single game that came out was on Steam, you could avoid the need to upgrade the Windows PC, but that's not going to happen. Most MMOs don't end up on Steam, and there's Origin. Want to play Battlefield 4? I doubt you'll be playing it on SteamOS.

The main purpose I can see for SteamOS is for the people that want the absolute best graphics and customization (PC), but really want to play it in their living room from their couch. A lot of these people are already doing this with Big Picture Mode, and SteamOS will make it easier and add some functionality. The controller will give the option to sit with a controller in your hand and play mouse-based games (though less effectively than if you used an actual mouse. I really don't see anyone playing something like DOTA2 with this controller.) If that's the role of this new OS though, is it worth the time and effort Valve is putting into it? Or is it just going to splinter the PC into 2 platforms? We already have to choose between Sony/Microsoft/PC when looking at where games are, is SteamOS going to be a new fourth? Will there ever be games that require SteamOS and won't run in Windows?



EDIT: Oops, I forgot that Nintendo exists, lol. I guess that would make Steambox a possible 5th platform, not 4th. (excluding handhelds)

[MysterD]

@W7RE

I'd guess people who are heavily invested already into Windows might say dual-boot their preferred Windows OS (I'd bet many go w/ Win 7 64-bit) & SteamOS onto the same system.

I think the other thing is Windows is getting bloated as a platform for gaming. Windows has gotten even worse in its bloated-ness - even more so especially once they added all of that unnecessary graphical Aero crap and any other forced Microsoft start-up programs + services running in the background. I have to keep Aero crap OFF at all times b/c that crap is one of the many reasons often is older games can't boot-up! DirectX was also never the greatest API performance-wise, as it ain't even lower-level API - it's got other layers to try and make sure games boot-up (and that doesn't always work, either - many times, it does, though). Meanwhile, that upcoming AMD Mantle API is of a lower-level (when compared to DX) and likely will have less stuff in its way to hinder performance. I'd also guess that the SteamOS likely will be less bloated, when compared to WindowsOS - especially if that SteamOS is going to be very-focused on PC gaming.

Looking at the specs some games for PC versions like Watch Dogs, AC4, and COD: Ghosts have - I also do wonder how any of these games might run on something lower-level like ATI Mantle and/or even on something like SteamOS.

[W7RE]

I guess for me the best case scenario would be for SteamOS to put pressure on Microsoft to cut down on the bloat, resulting in a better Windows. Combine that with Mantle and Windows may end up being a better gaming platform, and SteamOS can exist for the enthusiasts who like to play PC games in their living room. The same kind of people that are doing that already. It seems obvious to me that the primary reason for SteamOS is that Valve doesn't like the direction Windows has been taking, and there's no real competition to force them to improve. (though the lack of adoption for Windows 8 probably at least made them stop and think for a second)

I only really use my PC for gaming when it's something that's not available on console these days. I'm just not happy with the possibility of games that require SteamOS (Valve did it for Steam with Half-Life 2, and it increased Steam adoption). It would force me to dual boot, build a second PC, or pass on a game I might really like (Half-Life 3?).

[Xessive]

My hope is that games will eventually become platform-irrelevant. The way Valve are doing it, at least with their titles, by giving you access to the Windows, Linux, and Mac versions is what seems to work right now. Given how close to PC the console architectures are becoming, multi-platform development should be getting easier. Even if we only look at at how close Mac and PC have become over the past few years (since Macs switched to x86 architecture), it almost feels like it only takes a few minor tweaks and a PC game will work on a Mac.

[idolminds]

Hmmm...

Anyone who uses Steam's Big Picture Mode is already intimately acquainted with SteamOS, as they're very similar. SteamOS looks and acts like Big Picture Mode, except it's the basis for the entire hardware system. It's controller-friendly and easy to navigate. The same Steam splash page washes across the screen when it launches, and the same tile-based layout of games and the Steam store are visible at launch. As promised, the OS is built on Linux (not based on Ubuntu, we're told, but entirely custom), though you'd never know it as the only interactive layer is all Steam.

That means it also has the limitations of Steam: SteamOS is not the replacement for Windows 8 you've been waiting for. Beyond basics like browsing the web, there's little in the way of standard OS functions. While Valve reps showed off slides of the box's vanity shots using a Windows PC, I asked how I'd view such shots from within SteamOS -- the answer is that there's no real way to do so, as there's no file browsing system or image viewing application. While these limitations may not affect the vast majority of Steam Machine buyers (who are essentially buying a game console), it certainly impacts folks who are looking at Steam Machines as a replacement for their standard PC. Make no mistake: Steam Machines are PCs posing as game consoles, which comes with both positives and negatives.

I can sort of understand why Valve would do it that way. They don't want to support an entire OS, just their own little gaming corner of it. If you want an entire OS then you can go install Ubuntu and then run Steam on it...let Ubuntu handle the OS support.

So SteamOS is going to be used to run on a box you have dedicated to gaming and almost literally nothing else. If you want to do real Linux stuff you get real Linux and then run Steam on it. Or, considering Valve recently said they will not be making anything exclusive to SteamOS, you can just keep running your Windows box and ignore all this stuff.