Topic: What....what's going on here?

[gpw11]

I get the US government shutdown (well, I should say I "get" it), but I really don't get THIS.



Why go out of your way to deny service?

[Cobra951]

It's political.  Made you notice and talk about it.  We are fucked as a country because of the dirty politics.  Our form of government cannot work when there is no middle ground between two entrenched groups.  Therefore, either a lot of people need to be exterminated, or we need to modify how government works.  The latter seems more humane, though I'm not sure it's more feasible.

[idolminds]

Realistically you'll have to do the former to get the latter.

[scottws]

I get the US government shutdown (well, I should say I "get" it), but I really don't get THIS.



Why go out of your way to deny service?

I tried to go to NASA's site yesterday and you see something similar:  http://www.nasa.gov.  I highly doubt NASA's web servers are actually turned off.  Like Cobra said, it's political.

You know it's funny, I was trying to find an AM radio station that was talking about the situation in Congress but the only one I found was right wing propaganda.  I listened to it for a bit but the rhetoric was crazy: "NBC and CBS are wholly in the pocket of the Democratic party," "Americans as a whole are overwhelmingly against 'Obamacare,'" etc.  There were no facts to speak of, just a lot of blustery talk like that.  Honestly it was worse than Fox News.

Looking back, I think it's crazy that I used to identify myself as a conservative and a Republican.  I've been pretty disenfranchised by them since they moved so far to the right.  Can you believe that many Republicans actually push an agenda that basically tries to hide the fact that global warming is actually occurring, even though it has basically been proven by that pesky thing called "science."  And speaking of science, it's like Republicans are revolting against science in general.  And that is sad and amazing at the same time since our scientific advances have gotten us where we are as a country today.  You know, the Space Race and all the military research that lead to tons of technological breakthroughs that filtered down to our daily lives.

[gpw11]

It's political.  Made you notice and talk about it.  We are fucked as a country because of the dirty politics.  Our form of government cannot work when there is no middle ground between two entrenched groups.  Therefore, either a lot of people need to be exterminated, or we need to modify how government works.  The latter seems more humane, though I'm not sure it's more feasible.

Thats what I was suspicious of a bit but then couldn't figure out who really stood to gain from cutting services that didn't need to be cut.  I guess drawing attention to the issue/government by cutting services gets the public uppity - which they should be.  Especially because I imagine a lot of the staff who set up these services are no longer working, which is again kinda bullshit.

I have a couple of questions:

1.) Who decides to go back to work?
2.) The Tea Party republicans are shit and you all need to burn them.
3.) Are there well educated, average Joe types against Obama-care for some reason, or is it just pundits and politicians against it for purely ideological reasons?  I really don't know much about it.

[Cobra951]

Obamacare is compromise in the worst sense of that word.  It's something nobody wants.  But at least it's an attempted start toward providing something to those average Joes so that healthcare doesn't bankrupt them or escape their means entirely.  The fight is ideological to the core, and each group is self-serving to the core.  Nobody in Congress cares about Joe.  They only care about having their way in their ivory-tower game of brinksmanship.  Absolutely sickening.

[scottws]

Somehow the idea "Obamacare is basically communism" took hold with some really ignorant people, and since "communism is evil" therefore "Obamacare is evil" and "Obama is evil" because he pushed its original incarnation.

What really don't understand is that it has been proven that socialized healthcare works.  Many other first-world countries have been using it for some time.  I believe many (all?) of them also allow for the option of purchasing supplemental insurance that improves the coverage or experience in some manner.  It seems people that live in such countries are happy with it and overall pay less in healthcare costs.  And not just out-of-pocket costs.  As I understand it, the cost in taxes plus out-of-pocket overall is lower than Americans currently pay for private healthcare.

But because rich people stand to pay more taxes whenever social services are added or their allocation increases, they really hate socialized anything.  And because Congress is practically ran by and represents (by means of campaign contributions and I'm sure outright bribes) rich people, you have what you have now with our government.

What really bothers me though isn't how against some people are against socialized health care but how the current Congress is governing from crisis to crisis.  The Republicans are doing everything they can to kill the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") to the point that they inject things to fight it in a bunch of bills... even the budget!  The Democrats then fight against it but usually it results in some calamity like the debt ceiling not getting raised and the government not having a budget.  Then a few days later a compromise happens that resolves the issue at hand but injects a time bomb a few months down the road on something else.

As far as Obamacare being something nobody wants, I don't totally agree with that.  It's been completely neutered from Obama's original vision, but it does have some things I like such as reduction in that pre-existing condition crap.

[Cobra951]

Somehow the idea "Obamacare is basically communism" took hold with some really ignorant people, and since "communism is evil" therefore "Obamacare is evil" and "Obama is evil" because he pushed its original incarnation.

What really don't understand is that it has been proven that socialized healthcare works.  Many other first-world countries have been using it for some time.  I believe many (all?) of them also allow for the option of purchasing supplemental insurance that improves the coverage or experience in some manner.  It seems people that live in such countries are happy with it and overall pay less in healthcare costs.  And not just out-of-pocket costs.  As I understand it, the cost in taxes plus out-of-pocket overall is lower than Americans currently pay for private healthcare.

But because rich people stand to pay more taxes whenever social services are added or their allocation increases, they really hate socialized anything.  And because Congress is practically ran by and represents (by means of campaign contributions and I'm sure outright bribes) rich people, you have what you have now with our government.

What really bothers me though isn't how against some people are against socialized health care but how the current Congress is governing from crisis to crisis.  The Republicans are doing everything they can to kill the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") to the point that they inject things to fight it in a bunch of bills... even the budget!  The Democrats then fight against it but usually it results in some calamity like the debt ceiling not getting raised and the government not having a budget.  Then a few days later a compromise happens that resolves the issue at hand but injects a time bomb a few months down the road on something else.

As far as Obamacare being something nobody wants, I don't totally agree with that.  It's been completely neutered from Obama's original vision, but it does have some things I like such as reduction in that pre-existing condition crap.

I don't have much to add to this.  I saw it when you posted it, and waited for more substantive replies.  As none seem to be coming, I wasted to acknowledge what you said.  I agree with almost everything.  When I said nobody wants Obamacare, I meant as it stands, with most of its teeth knocked out, and no real path to funding a workable universal healthcare system.  I'm all for a progressive healthcare tax, and the elimination of the healthcare insurance business as it works today.  That has as much of a chance of happening in this country as a love-in between Jews and Palestinians in Israel.

[Xessive]

I can't really speak on how healthcare works in the US, since I've never experienced it, but by in general I have a grasp of health insurance on a global scale.

In the UAE healthcare is mandatory, particularly in the capital city of Abu Dhabi. By law of the health Authority, every employer (with very few exceptions) is obligated to provide medical insurance for their employees, the employee's spouse, and up to three children. That's the law. However, given my current occupation in an insurance company, I know what sort of challenges people are facing and I see all sorts of cases where the employers are dodging providing coverage by having their their employees listed as "single" instead of "married" (when they are in fact married) thereby relieving themselves from any legal obligation to insure his/her family. The employee is in a tough position because while he could report them to the Health Authority, he risks losing his job and hence getting evicted since you need a job in order to stay in the country. It's a fierce catch 22.

Based on the stories I've been hearing about what's going on in the US, it sounds like quite a few businesses are finding loopholes to avoid covering their employees. For example, dropping employees' shift hours from 40 hours per week to 39 hours per week in order to technically list them as part-time instead of full-time employees and legally avoiding any obligation to cover them.

[Cobra951]

Yeah, you don't need loopholes.  The law here makes it extremely easy for employers not to cover their employees.  They routinely make even fulltime employees pay a good part of healthcare coverage, and the costs are exorbitant.  Temp workers, part-timers, seasonal workers don't need to be covered.  And what about the people who don't work, by choice or otherwise?  (Forget the unemployment figure, because it's a damned lie.  Look instead at the adult employment-to-population ratio figure, which is something like 59%.)  They don't have any viable options.  The ranks of the uninsured keep climbing.  It's a disgrace.

[gpw11]

I had something really long written out but lost it.  I just can't believe that there's any grass roots opposition to fully government funded universal healthcare.  I get that there are roadblocks, but every Tom, Dick, and Harry who isn't an HMO or pharmaceutical executive should be all about it. Takes the burden off of business owners, reduces the overall net cost of care, blah blah blah.  It's the Tea Party, isn't it?  Goddamn Tea Party.

[idolminds]

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." -Winston Churchill

[scottws]

I read an really interesting article on The Guardian today: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/06/shutdown-us-government-republican-party

It got me thinking. It seems that Republican political figures in some states, in an effort to solidify their hold on congressional seats, redrew congressional districts. That strategy seems to have worked if taken at face value.  However, there has been an awful side effect that I think even some more moderate Republicans are aware of.  Since the politicians in some of these new districts have little credible fear of losing their seat to a Democrat, they are pushing a very right wing agenda in keeping with their most vocal constituents.  This agenda seems to be a take no prisoners type.

The problem is that many of these politicians aren't governing, at least in a traditional sense. The Affordable Care Act is settled law, is it not?  It has already been signed into law, survived a few attempts at repeal, and even survived an early Constitutional test in the Supreme Court.  But these new reactionary Republicans refuse to accept this fact and instead are willing to do anything at all to stop it, even basically breaking our government.

To me, that is the problem. By all traditional measures, the Affordable Care Act is settled and the lawmakers should be moving on to other matters. But what we are now seeing is effectively a refusal to govern.

I think this has hurt the image of the Republican party overall, except in the eyes of hardcore conservatives.  Interestingly, the redrawing of congressional districts has basically broken our government.

[Cobra951]

Oh yeah.  Definitely.  Gerrymandering not only is reality, it's reality out in the open--meaning it's talked about openly even in political circles.  Think about it.  This is clearly wrongdoing, yet it's so pervasive, and the opposition to it so impotent, that the bastards just laugh about it in public after they do it.  Sandy knows some political figures here in Lawrenceburg, and gerrymandering is very much a part of what goes on shamelessly.

Once again, your post is spot on.  Those guys aren't governing.  They're obstructing government, and will continue to do so even if it hurts the country (which it already has).  They're safe in their ivory tower, for the reasons you already mentioned plus the huge amounts of private money that also gives them an unfair edge in reelection.  It's sickening.  It cannot be fixed within the system.  Change must be imposed on it some other way, or we must continue to live with its consequences, as long as that's possible.

[scottws]

I just don't understand why this is all going on.  People are taking steps that are clearly bad for the United States of America as a whole, including Tea Party constituents in the long term.  Everything from breaking our government to discounting real science and scientific progress to slowly killing off the middle class. Yet the people that support these frankly stupid agendas keep getting put in seats of power.

In short:  what the heck is wrong with people?  How can people be this blind and short-sighted?

[Cools!]

Money would be my answer.

But yeah, it's really strange to see people fuck up their own country. It's really hard to watch all the negativity and ideas being quickly labelled "socialist" or "communist" and people going against something just because they heard that label being thrown around and not thinking about it for themselves.

Of course, doesn't help that Canada has its own share of stupidity right now...

[iPPi]

Did you hear that there is a massive salmonella outbreak in the US and FDA was shutdown and didn't warn or notify the public? 

[idolminds]

This should probably be in the game deals thread, but it also sorta fits here. You should check out the GOG.com Shutdown Promo. It's pretty hilarious.