Topic: Apple is frustrated that people are cheap

[idolminds]

Ok, not quite what you're thinking.

The actual development of The Banner Saga's tablet port has been relatively smooth, Watson explained. The game was ported from its native PC platform to the iPad in just two days. The majority of the work that's now going into the tablet version boils down to painstaking optimization, as well as the other factors, including wrestling with the "black magic" required to succeed on the platform. The biggest decision is, of course, how much The Banner Saga should cost on tablets.

It's a decision that Stoic is still struggling with — and, surprisingly, it's one that Apple has been advising the studio on.

"Apple is frustrated, along with everybody else, about the mentality that's gone rampant in mobile app markets, where people don't want to pay anything," Watson said. "They want to pay as little as possible. They think that four dollars is an exorbitant amount to pay for a game, which is very illogical considering most people's lifestyles. They'll spend $600 on an iPad, and $4 on a coffee, drop $20 on lunch, but when it comes to spending four or five dollars on a game, it's this life-altering decision. I'm frustrated with that too."

Funny since its the App store that really generated that mentality. Personally I think its because I consider most iOS games more as "distractions" rather than games. Its something I'll bring up, play for 5 minutes, then put away. But...maybe that is a function of the price? If I only spent a dollar or got it for free then I'm not really invested in it and don't have to try too hard to get my moneys worth out of it. Whereas I buy a game for $20 and I'm going to play it pretty seriously otherwise it feels like a waste.

I dunno. But the rest of the article is cool, too. Banner Saga is neat.

[PyroMenace]

Yea I completely lost interest in mobile phone gaming, partly because of what you said about them being these small cheap distractions and the other part is I don't want to deal with using touch screen controls. I am more of the mindset of when I game, I want to sit down with something I can spend a good amount of time with, holds my interest, with controls I am more familiar with, keyboard/mouse/controller.

[Cobra951]

Good!  The mobile crap is threatening to destroy real gaming.  Anything that makes developers pause and take a step back is most welcome.

[scottws]

Android gaming is worse. People expect no cost there, which basically means free-to-play pay-to-win garbage. I know kids are driving g this market. Sad to see that they tolerate all this junk.

Honestly I can see it leading to another videogame market crash.

[nickclone]

I love how these crappy mobile game skew the statistics of videogames as a whole. I saw one article that said half of all gamers are female, sorry, but I don't believe it. Just because you play Candy Crush, doesn't make you a gamer.

Anyways, I say good riddance to these games. The only one I've ever paid for was Doom Rpg and thats because I was given credit when I bought my new phone. I only played when I was bored out of the house or on the toilet, thats all these games are good for, wasting time or a distraction. I can't see anyone actually playing one of these games like you would play a console game.

[scottws]

I bought a few games, like Monument Valley. Unfortunately, most mobile gaming seems pretty throw away.

[idolminds]

Its a major downward spiral. No one will want to spend the time making anything deeper if no one will pay for them, and no one wants to pay for something thats just throwaway trash.

I dont think we'll see a videogame crash, but the mobile market is going to fucking crater.

[PyroMenace]

Its a major downward spiral. No one will want to spend the time making anything deeper if no one will pay for them, and no one wants to pay for something thats just throwaway trash.

I dont think we'll see a videogame crash, but the mobile market is going to fucking crater.

Yea its hard to say, I feel like its always going to be a place mainly for the younger and more casual audience which is fairly large.

[Quemaqua]

I could see a videogame crash, but more as part of a mobile market implosion and a new console implosion happening simultaneously. They both seem to potentially be on the decline.

I was really into mobile games for a bit. There were a lot of cool little things, they were cheap, some cool card games and boardgames that found a home there ... then all of a sudden I stopped giving a shit. I'm still there. I just don't care. This is due in part to my aging iPod Touch 3G, and also its lack of free space at any given time because of my huge music collection, and also because I bought a 3DS ... but still.

[Cools!]

I wouldn't mind if mobile games went up in price to encourage more quality content and to move away from the current trend of making a game free or really cheap and then have to pay for content through in-game purchases.

I definitely don't want there to be any mobile gaming crash. Right now mobile gaming is the easiest way to get into game dev. It's sort of what modding used to be for PC gaming, except in mobile you can actually make a living from it from the start. Like idol, I always viewed mobile as a minor distraction and I'm ok with it staying that way.

[Xessive]

I agree with Cools. I would much rather pay a little extra to get a complete product than get nickel-and-dimed with some aggressive built-in payment schemes.

That's not to say that I approve of the current business models "high-end" games on mobile devices. For example, Square-Enix have been pretty terrible with their mobile games payment structure. They charge ridiculously high prices ($15-$50 USD) and still have the crappy in-app purchases.

By contrast, XCOM EU is $10 and it's a complete product. You won't have to purchase any extras to get the most out of it.

[Pugnate]

I don't know why, but aggressive payment system made me smile.

YOU PAY FOR THAT SWORD RIGHT NOW OR I WILL COME AND FIND YOU.

[scottws]

Here is an interesting anecdote.  I do not know how relevant it is or representative it is for other people.

My brother-in-law's son (I guess he's technically a nephew now) is 15 and it at that age and has that personality where no one knows what to get him as a gift.  So this results in him getting millions of Gamestop and iTunes gift cards.  He only has so many songs and movies on iTunes and only so many games on the Apple App Store that he is interested in, so with the leftover money he has literally spent something like $170 (in gift cards) on gold, elixir, and gems in Clash of Clans.

That is completely absurd.  I can't imagine spending $170 on a deep, engaging game that I really enjoyed much less throwaway crap like Clash of Clans.  But to him, what else is he going to do with all the gift cards?  He can only spend them with one vendor and, after purchasing things that are truly of interest to him, he has so much literally disposable gift card money.  But it has resulted in a free-to-play game dev getting $170 out of him.

I guess it is proof that the free-to-play model can work from a business standpoint.  I think older, more mature people would scoff at the idea of rewarding a free-to-play game vendor like that even if they had the disposable money.  I for one refuse to pay even $1 on such a game (including if it is a game that costs $1 but contains in-app purchasing elements).

[Xessive]

That is insane! This is one reason I've never been a fan of gift cards. I'd much rather give cash instead of telling someone "buy something from this shop only." Of course giving cash comes with its own caveats, especially when you're giving it to a teenager. Gift cards comes with the security that you know where they're spending them.

[Xessive]

I don't know why, but aggressive payment system made me smile.

YOU PAY FOR THAT SWORD RIGHT NOW OR I WILL COME AND FIND YOU.

Haha I thought you might

[Cobra951]

Free-to-play may work as a business model.  So do protection rackets and running numbers.  We outlaw those because they're abusive (among other things).

I always prefer to give money rather than gift cards.  (I prefer to get it too.)  Why tie anyone to one particular vendor?

[scottws]

I would prefer to give cash or check as well, but both my own and my wife's family frown on giving cash as a gift.  The reason given is that it is thoughtless, a cop out.  But giving gift cards are fine so long as you say something like, "I am sorry I got you a gift card!  I couldn't think of anything to get you."   

Personally I hate gift cards.  Someone once gave me a Gamestop gift card.  I have never bought anything from them because I think they are an evil, predatory corporation.  But what can I do if someone else already gave them money on my behalf?  Not to mention the intrinsic benefit that gift cards give to the corporation they are for.  There are only two basic scenarios that can play out:  1) You spend less than the gift card is worth.  The corporation gets free money, even if only pennies.  2)  You spend more than the gift card is worth because you want to avoid situation #1, even if you actually didn't want to spend that much money.  There is no way to buy something for $20 using a $25 gift card and get the $5 back as cash.  I understand why they do it that way, but still it leaves you with only two possible situations.  I think this is the main reason that they are so common today.

And have you seen those gift cards where there is a service fee?  I got a gift card once to Skyline Chili in Cincinnati.  It was only for $10, but after a certain period of time they started charging a $1 monthly service fee to the gift card account.  By the time I tried to use the card (admittedly several years after receiving it), it had a $0 balance.  The back of the card did describe this fee, but I called the corporate office anyway and gave them a pretty hard time.  Their excuse was that it isn't free for them to maintain the funds on the account.  BS.  About the only good reason to not support a gift card's balance forever would be due to the fact they would have to maintain the system that the original gift card was created from, unless they could come up with a way to make using it with a newer system seamless for both the consumer and the people at the store.

Sorry for the tangent!

[Cools!]

OT, but what Apple really needs to worry about is the horrible service at their stores. They have so many people running around that either flat out ignore you or have some specific task and don't want to answer any questions, no matter how basic.

I remember when I wanted to get my laptop, I went to the store, I knew the model, I had to wait for at least 15 minutes for someone who handles purchases to finally become available (even though Apple stores have a cashier station at each table). That's when they told me they were out of that particular model. During that time I waited, at least 5 different people ran around me, yet none of them could actually check or prepare the order, they were all there either answering questions or greeting people.

Fast forward to today. My dad wants to upgrade to an iPhone 5s and we were in the mall with an Apple store. So we went inside, checked out the new phones, then realized the SIM card sizes are different so figured we'd ask someone about that. Should be a pretty easy thing right? Hey, I have a 3gs, want to move to 5s, but it has a nano-SIM card slot, what do I do? Well, went through 5 people who all said they couldn't help because they are just greeting or signing up people for tech support or some other bullshit. Turns out we had to sign up to get questions answered now, none of the staff even made that clear or offered it, another customer told us. But hey, at least there's free wifi and iPads are right there so I was able to find out the answer during the time. But what the hell? Why don't you actually listen to the person's question first before you tell them you can't help them? Maybe it's really basic that you can answer it yourself? Or hey, actually sign up people if you have to wait inline for tech support. Anyway, we didn't end up staying, if my dad decides to get a new phone can just buy it online and not waist 30 minutes waiting for a cashier.

Oh and every Apple store I've been to lately has had a horrible smell.

[Quemaqua]

Totally with you on gift cards, scott. That crap pisses me off. I sort of like getting gift cards because it's free money that I have an excuse to spend rather than save (if someone gave me cash, I'd be more likely to save it), so that's sort of nice. But then ... everything you just described happens.

The only gift worse than getting a gift card to a retail store that I can think of is getting an iTunes card. Or, for me, I guess getting a gift card to like a steakhouse or something.

[Cools!]

Funny thing about cash scottws. In our family and pretty much most Eastern European families that I know, cash is the preferred way of being "safe" and it's not seen as being a cop out. People frown more at gift cards.

[Quemaqua]

I never understood the whole taboo about giving cash. When I got married, my mother-in-law was vehemently against us doing a money tree at our reception, when money was the only thing we actually needed because we both already had plenty of household items, etc., and she basically forced us under threat of death (she was not to be trifled with, and I had to play along because I needed her as an ally to help deal with wife-related issues) to do a registry for a bunch of shit we didn't need, most of which she ended up storing because we didn't have the space for it, then she got rid of it because she didn't want to store it. So it was a giant waste of time and people's money, money we sure as hell could have used being that I was the only one working. I don't care how "lazy" it seems. You give me cash, I will shake your hand and be a happy man.

[Cools!]

Que, the wedding I was at a few weeks ago had no registry, they just expected everyone to give money and as far as I know everyone gave envelopes with cash. I would get if people close to you would know what specifically to give you, but extended family or friends? Just give money.

[Quemaqua]

See, that's the stuff right there.

[Cobra951]

Most of what I was going to say after Scott's rant has already been said.  Why not money?  I loved getting money as a kid.  It meant I could go get exactly what I wanted as a present, not socks, not sweaters, not toys that didn't appeal to me.  It's the opposite of selfish or thoughtless.  By giving money, you are allowing yourself to be the target of this dumb anti-money attitude (selflessly) and you're giving the best thing possible to anyone whose mind you cannot read.  What could be more thoughtful?

[scottws]

OT, but what Apple really needs to worry about is the horrible service at their stores. They have so many people running around that either flat out ignore you or have some specific task and don't want to answer any questions, no matter how basic.

I remember when I wanted to get my laptop, I went to the store, I knew the model, I had to wait for at least 15 minutes for someone who handles purchases to finally become available (even though Apple stores have a cashier station at each table). That's when they told me they were out of that particular model. During that time I waited, at least 5 different people ran around me, yet none of them could actually check or prepare the order, they were all there either answering questions or greeting people.

Fast forward to today. My dad wants to upgrade to an iPhone 5s and we were in the mall with an Apple store. So we went inside, checked out the new phones, then realized the SIM card sizes are different so figured we'd ask someone about that. Should be a pretty easy thing right? Hey, I have a 3gs, want to move to 5s, but it has a nano-SIM card slot, what do I do? Well, went through 5 people who all said they couldn't help because they are just greeting or signing up people for tech support or some other bullshit. Turns out we had to sign up to get questions answered now, none of the staff even made that clear or offered it, another customer told us. But hey, at least there's free wifi and iPads are right there so I was able to find out the answer during the time. But what the hell? Why don't you actually listen to the person's question first before you tell them you can't help them? Maybe it's really basic that you can answer it yourself? Or hey, actually sign up people if you have to wait inline for tech support. Anyway, we didn't end up staying, if my dad decides to get a new phone can just buy it online and not waist 30 minutes waiting for a cashier.

Oh and every Apple store I've been to lately has had a horrible smell.

My exposure to an Apple Store was just a single time when I had to get them to look at my stepson's iPhone 5c, which wouldn't charge.  I honestly didn't have a major problem with the service per se except for the fact that we set up an appointment and still had to wait like 30 minutes for someone to pay attention to us at all.  What's the point of the appointment if you just end up waiting in a line anyway?

[Cools!]

Yup, I don't get their system at all. At least at the start they still had the cashiers so you at least knew where to go, now you just have to wait and hope that someone who knows something will be able to help you out.

[gpw11]

Android gaming is worse. People expect no cost there, which basically means free-to-play pay-to-win garbage. I know kids are driving g this market. Sad to see that they tolerate all this junk.

Honestly I can see it leading to another videogame market crash.

I think I read that Google actually just dropped the hammer and will no longer allow games with in-app purchases to be labelled as "free" in the Play Market.    So, there's going to be, like, four "free" apps left.

As for gifts, go cash.  I've always viewed the disdain for doing so as being somewhat old fashioned.  I mean, I get where it comes from, but practicality wins out sometimes - especially with weddings.

[idolminds]

Timely interview

[Cobra951]

The idea is to design bad gaming to make you pay around it.

*Shudder*  That read chilled me to the bone.  I guess nothing is guaranteed to forever move in the right direction, and gaming may be in for a longterm setback.  If this bleak future comes to pass, I think that between my extensive backlog and the scant real games that may yet come, I should be able to keep gaming for whatever is left of my life.  I can hope anyway.

As you know, I've hated Apple for a long time.  But I've never hated them nearly as much as I do right now.

[Xessive]

Some indie games, like DLC Quest, directly addressed crap like that with comic effect. When the game starts, you can only move right, and you have to  "buy" dlc to move left, and so on with all other game mechanics and features.