Topic: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad

[gpw11]

Right on the tail of the other post in here about gamers, indie developers, and everyone else being absolute shitheads, this gem pops up.

So, I'm at work yesterday and decide to check out Reddit.  It's a fucking warzone and I can't figure out why or what the fuck is going on because it all seems so convoluted and doesn't seem like anything anyone should care about.  So, obviously, I tried to get to the bottom of it - there's a mystery to be solved:  The Case of Why Reddit is so Fucked Right Now.  I'm going to save you the hours of reading that I did and just sum it up:

-Maybe years ago, maybe not, some indie developer claims she's getting harrassed and bombarded by 4chan and something called Wizardchan - which is 4chan...for virgins....which seems redundant and dumb, but whatever.  Apparently the two image boards actually go out of their way to prove it was all bullshit, because the only thing they like more than trolling is trolling people who faked them trolling them originally.  Industry chumps stand up for this Zoe Quinn girl, as do grrrrrl gamers and internet feminists.  Everyone else thinks she's a shit head or doesn't care care.  Whatever.

-Chick becomes somewhat well known in the niche market of people involved in indie games who are also feminists.  There's probably some controversy somewhere.  Who the fuck knows.

-Chick releases a free game.  It gets on Steam

-Chick and her boyfriend broke up.  He gets all pissy and writes (I'm not shitting you here) 15,000 on a blog describing how much of a piece of garbage she is.  He posts chat logs, reveals secrets, and lets it out that she's banged five or so industry insiders who I guess are pretty well known.

-I get the idea in my head that she might be hot.  She's not, it's a huge let down.  The guys she banged are likewise awkward and weird looking.  Eh.

-Someone puts two and two together and figured out that some of those dudes gave her shitty free game a lot (or some) coverage.  Also, one guy is her boss.

-Internet blows up.  "She's banging for reviews!"  "Can't trust any games journalist!"  "Women are all sluts!" "Men always blame the victim!".  Mods everywhere start deleting threads when people start revealing personal information.

-Internet blows up again. "The industry is incestuous, right down to mods!"  "Censorship!!" I check again to see if she's hot.  Nope, still hideous.  I don't get it.

-I go to reddit to try to look at funny pictures of cats and Russian dash cam videos.  I'm blue balled because the top thirty threads are retweets from some indie fucktard's thoughts on the situation or how some shit head blogger thinks this is all unfair.

-I waste hours trying to find out why this is so interesting to people.  A bunch of ugly people bang, some guy spills the shit and releases his (seriously pathetic, but very revealing) chat logs about his girlfriend who probably has a mental disorder, people cry foul everywhere from every which side and I still can't figure out the interesting part.


-THERE IS NO FUCKING INTERESTING PART. THAT'S IT - UGLY PEOPLE BANG, SOME GUY GOT CHEATED ON AND HANDLED IT TERRIBLY. HIS UGLY GIRLFRIEND IS A BITCH AND SOME AWKWARD DUDES GOT LAID.  GIVE ME MY FUCKING DASH CAMS.

And here's the thing about the culture around the games industry:  All it is is bitching.  Journalists bitch about the moves developers make, developers bitch about fans, fans bitch about journalists and developers being in bed, developers bitch about journalists not giving indies the time of day, journasdfkl ioj df ;sdf iosda f AAAAAGH! Fuck!

These aren't all unified groups, of course, but occasionally, in just the right shit-storm environment, they'll get all their panties in a collective bunch and converge in a whirlwind of idiocy in order to take away my goddamn dash cams. And for that I hate them.

[PyroMenace]

Video games man, at some point or another we have all taken this hobby serious and hold it very dear to our hearts.

I almost feel like this community has helped us vent out and even discuss shit like this in a healthy and mature manner even if it has gone out of hand a little from time to time. Take this situation for example, who else has exposed some female drama on a public forum such as this, I have for one, even so far as the person in question found out and even made an account to write a response if any of you remember. Even reading that whole blog rang so much familiarity with me, I've even had some close friends tell stories eerily similar. Now we are watching shit go down with kids that did stupid shit we did but with today's social media making it available to everyone. It seems like the common response is to condemn them, but I really don't have any right to judge. They are young, naive and I'm sure they will look back on this and face palm themselves into more maturity. Everyone else will grab the popcorn and pretend to be better, but one day I'll end up reading their blog.

[Pugnate]

Although this thread hasn't gotten many responses, I found your post to be an amusing read. Anyway, I skimmed through her boyfriend's blog, and clearly she had some issues, but really who cares?

http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/

Upon Googling her I realize it has turned into a shit storm, when really, who cares so much?

[Cobra951]

It's been impossible to avoid this shitstorm for the past several days.  All gaming sites seem affected by it, not just the reddit/4chan epicenter.  Since I don't delve into reddit (or 4chan, or wizardchan) I found this page interesting, in particular Quinn's Response (scroll down) and the comments (scroll down further).  She paints herself as a complete victim, while everyone else seems to think she's just a manipulative bitch, who led some game journalists to prostitute their integrity in her favor.  Ugh!  Yeah, I've been giving this as much attention as it deserves, which is why I haven't posted a word about it here, until now that gpw made a thread about it.  I'm sure it will die down eventually.  Even if the worst of the rumors are true, would it be a shock to anyone here?

[Pugnate]

It's been impossible to avoid this shitstorm for the past several days.  All gaming sites seem affected by it, not just the reddit/4chan epicenter.  Since I don't delve into reddit (or 4chan, or wizardchan) I found this page interesting, in particular Quinn's Response (scroll down) and the comments (scroll down further).  She paints herself as a complete victim, while everyone else seems to think she's just a manipulative bitch, who led some game journalists to prostitute their integrity in her favor.  Ugh!  Yeah, I've been giving this as much attention as it deserves, which is why I haven't posted a word about it here, until now that gpw made a thread about it.  I'm sure it will die down eventually.  Even if the worst of the rumors are true, would it be a shock to anyone here?

Makes me realize I haven't been to a gaming website in months!

[Quemaqua]

It's funny, these "big internet things" that are "everywhere" I almost never see. I know about this because of IRC, and this post, and that's it. Fuck the internet. Such a waste of time, because too often it seems to be all about this kind of crap. As a collective entity it's just ... ugh. So frustrating. I hate the fact that we get caught up in this stuff ("we"), and it makes no sense to me why people feel it's any of their business. I guess because the dumbasses involved end up making it their business.

Anyway. Yeah, this situation is weird. I don't get it either. Thankfully, the only websites I visit are this one and Giant Bomb.

[K-man]

I am obviously way out of touch because this thread is the first time I've heard about any of this.

All I can say is "LOL Internet"

[Pugnate]

Suddenly I don't feel so out of touch.

[W7RE]

The only other mention of her I've seen was a post on NeoGAF from the forum owner. Had screencaps of emails bitching about Zoe Quinn topics being locked/deleted. One of the support people responded to one saying he understood his rage, and that he no doubt wanted to fire his proton torpedo directly up her thermal exhaust port. (That metaphor is the best thing to come out of the topic, no doubt.) A couple posts in, someone sumed it up nicely: female indie dev cheats on her BF with industry people, possibly for coverage of her game, then the internet took over the case.

[idolminds]

The internet has made us assholes.




These hackers were pretty vindictive. The site is down now, but as one person on neogaf described what was edited onto their web page:

Think of every-single important piece of information you don't want people to know.

Now imagine all of that on a webpage for everyone to see.

Bank numbers, phone numbers, passwords, everything.

EDIT: Here is a screencap

[gpw11]

How do people even get this shit?

Also, why isn't anyone else commenting on how ugly everyone involved is??

[idolminds]

@PHIL_FISH 11:15 PM
i would like to announce that POLYTRON and the FEZ IP are now for sale. no reasonable offer will be turned down. i am done. i want out.

[idolminds]

And it is deleted.

[Cobra951]

The internet has made us assholes.

. . .

Mmm  . . . I think more like the internet has empowered some people already predisposed to be assholes, and sped them along that path.

Phil Fish has been painting a neon target on his back for years now, and he has the nerve to act surprised when someone manages a bullseye.

Edit:  My quote of the day.

. . . teasing a lion and getting eaten is not justice, but it's what happens.

Brill.  I wish I had come up with it.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, fuck that. I don't care how trite and vindictive you are, nothing the guy did warrants that. Sorry, if you're laughing at this, you're an asshole.

[Cobra951]

Heheh!  How very appropriate.  I know.  You hate that I hate this guy.  It's been clear to me for a while.  I don't condone what happened to him, but it is what happens.  That was the point of my quote.  I wasn't laughing.  I am now, for some reason.  I guess being called an asshole during the conversation about internet assholes was too ironic for a straight face.

[Quemaqua]

For the record, I wasn't speaking about you specifically, and I don't hate that you hate him. I don't really get why you hate him so much. I understand the distaste, but I have no feelings about the guy whatsoever nor do I feel personally invested in the thing at all. I just don't understand why we all need to take up arms against some guy who was too dumb to keep his mouth shut. He may be a bit of a jerk, but it seems to me this is a step too far, and isn't gloating about it basically the attitude that's causing the problem? I'm not attempting to be judgmental, here. I'm attempting not to be. Because this isn't "what happens", not to anyone, not until the age of the Internet when somebody can hold a stupid grudge against you for being an idiot (or hell, for them deciding you're an idiot whether you are one or not by any realistic standard, since they're judge and jury) and decide that maybe they should ruin your life (or at least fuck it up pretty well for a considerable period, in a very public way) because of that. That doesn't seem like just recompense to me. That's not "what happens", because it's not a law of physics. That's what a few particular people choose to do when they have the power to and feel that justice is on their side. I'm generally behind what Anonymous does, but this is just unnecessary. Can any of them say they haven't fucked up or done something bad in their time on the earth? Slighted people? Been selfish? Had a dunderheaded opinion others didn't share? They can claim it, sure, and even if they did, who would question? Since by their own banner they have the advantage of anonymity. We aren't allowed to judge them except based on these limited actions.

I don't know. This just all seems like too much.

(And you know what, since the way I phrased my clarification above still bothered me ... just because we have somewhat different opinions about Phil Fish doesn't mean I think you're an asshole.)

[Cobra951]

Again, I'm not condoning what happened.  I'm rather horrified by it, in fact, because it could happen to anyone.  And the quote was not meant to make light of it; rather, it was sort of a cautionary phrase, like "if you try to be a savior, you end up crucified".  It captures the essence of the action, reaction, and relative power of the parties involved.

I didn't think you were calling me an asshole--not really.  I figured it was just an off-the-cuff comment.  I'm sorry if I pushed the wrong buttons.  And I shouldn't let Phil Fish's scathing personality get my goat either.  I don't know the man personally, so you're right in saying I have no reason to hate him on a personal level.  We throw words around like "hate" too lightly perhaps.  I know you don't really hate me for any reason either, particularly not for how I feel about someone neither of us knows.

[Quemaqua]

Heh, I just edited my post to make that more clear in case it wasn't.

It's somehow really easy to get caught up in all this. Maybe it's just the nature of human drama and the Internet sucks us into that on a larger-scale because it makes more of it available. I honestly don't know. Either way, this is part of the reason I want to get off Facebook and such. I feel sort of surrounded by this kind of thing a lot (even if about totally different topics and other divisions of the world), and it just seems unnatural and wrong the more of it I see. Like Phil, I kind of feel like I want out. We've talked about this in IRC a few times.

[Cobra951]

Oh yeah.  I've never been on Facebook.  I'm afraid to be.  It's instant exposure to a bit that you see, and a lot you don't see.  I've tried to think up some way to be there with less exposure, but I haven't succeeded.  You can't really be anonymous or shielded when you're involving real-life family and friends.

[Quemaqua]

You can just not interact, and you can ignore your feed, but in practice I've found the latter doesn't work very well for me. Inevitably I get a bit curious and then regret it, or get engaged in useless conversations with people. I like the networking in the sense of potential business/writing contacts, but that's about it. And even that I'm beginning to wonder if I can't do without.

[Cools!]

Back to Phil Fish: I think people like that need to have a PR person to handle all their social media. No exceptions. It should be part of his contract with whoever is providing him with money. Seriously, all the whining and bitching. I don't agree with what happened to him, but like Cobra mentioned he had a huge target on him for a long time.

Oh and gpw, your original post was the best tl;dr I've read in years. Thanks!

[gpw11]

Heh, I just edited my post to make that more clear in case it wasn't.

It's somehow really easy to get caught up in all this. Maybe it's just the nature of human drama and the Internet sucks us into that on a larger-scale because it makes more of it available. I honestly don't know. Either way, this is part of the reason I want to get off Facebook and such. I feel sort of surrounded by this kind of thing a lot (even if about totally different topics and other divisions of the world), and it just seems unnatural and wrong the more of it I see. Like Phil, I kind of feel like I want out. We've talked about this in IRC a few times.

You know what I think it is?  That it's safe to get invested in.  There is so much information out there that we're constantly bombarded with what's going on and a lot of it is pretty fucking disturbing or depressing on some level.  ISIS, ebola, the Ukraine, NSA, civil unrest, etc.  It gets to a certain point where it's likely that it's subconsciously morally exhausting.  You could spend all day arguing how you feel Russia is in the wrong, Kiev is, how ebola efforts have been mismanaged and the tragedy that the people affected aren't culturally aware of the impact of exposure to infected loved ones, etc etc etc, and at the end of it you don't feel any better for it - you feel worse, because it makes you realize that the world is this giant shit storm grey area where there really isn't an objective right or wrong, just a lot of heartache for people you don't know.

And then something like this happens and people who are even minimally invested go all in, because it's simple and it's easy, and - most importantly - it doesn't matter at all. People jump on it and can freely spout their opinions, indignation, or support without really having to question themselves at all ...because who gives a shit? It's a lot easier to say "Girl is a skank and Phil Fish deserves what he got" than say "Israel can do whatever the fuck they want in Gaza because they have a right to protect their boarders and citizens from potential aggressors", because even people who whole heartily believe in the second argument are also generally empathetic enough to realize that there's a lot of fucking heartache involved there, and really who wants to spend all their time thinking about that?

This is the perfect hybrid for a lot of people, especially those predisposed to really like video games, enough to read industry news. There's enough false controversy there to make people think that they're contributing to a discussion on pertinent issues there, but light enough for them to be able to just turn it off in their minds minutes later and not have to think about the fact that there are a lot of people out there suffering an awful lot.

Also, a lot of people are just fucktards.

Oh and gpw, your original post was the best tl;dr I've read in years. Thanks!

It was deep and important and needed to be said.

[Cobra951]

Israel can do whatever the fuck they want in Gaza because they have a right to protect their borders and citizens from potential and very real aggressors.

Russia shot down a passenger jumbo jet, whether directly, or indirectly through the black-ops forces that are destabilizing Ukraine.  Putin is a narcissistic fucktard.

Ebola sucks, but I understand there have been some promising developments very recently.

Phil Fish's and Zoe Quinn's problems don't amount to a hill of beans in that crazy world.

[gpw11]

Israel can do whatever the fuck they want in Gaza because they have a right to protect their borders and citizens from potential and very real aggressors.

Russia shot down a passenger jumbo jet, whether directly, or indirectly through the black-ops forces that are destabilizing Ukraine.  Putin is a narcissistic fucktard.

Ebola sucks, but I understand there have been some promising developments very recently.

Phil Fish's and Zoe Quinn's problems don't amount to a hill of beans in that crazy world.

Hahaha. To be honest, you and I aren't the type of people I'm talking about here.  I mean, I used to get in arguments about world events on the internet in university, but then we left AOG and I lost the ability to take pleasure out of giving Madzim and whoever else high blood pressure. 

[Quemaqua]

people who whole heartily believe in the second argument are also generally empathetic enough to realize that there's a lot of fucking heartache involved there, and really who wants to spend all their time thinking about that?

Yet these same people aren't empathetic enough to realize the heartache involved when you tear somebody's life down publicly on the Internet, and make them think that the entire world (even though it's probably just a tiny fraction of it) hates them and thinks they're garbage? This has very real consequences for someone, just like anything else. Your average citizen of the US has no personal ties to Israel or the middle east, so why is one thing different than another? Yeah, it isn't somebody getting gunned down in the street, or children becoming casualties of war, but it's still pretty fucking awful for someone.

[gpw11]

Yeah, I was probably off base about that.

[Quemaqua]

Either that or it's just that something like this doesn't feel "severe" to people. Or they're just like "that cunt deserved it" because they aren't thinking about the actual consequences for that person. Which is entirely possible.

[PyroMenace]

I can't tell if this is some sort of parody or if these "adults" actually believe what they are saying. It seems like its the latter... which oddly makes it funnier if not really fucking sad.

[Pugnate]

I am just amazed how seriously people took this nonsense.

[Cobra951]

What sparked this thread certainly is nonsense, and the guys in that last video look like total goofballs.  But there really is a threat to artistic freedom in games from that totalitarian doctrine that is political correctness, in particular from militant feminism.  No one may like the man who coined the term "feminazi", but it's the perfect label for Sarkeesian and her ilk.

[gpw11]

I can't tell if this is some sort of parody or if these "adults" actually believe what they are saying. It seems like its the latter... which oddly makes it funnier if not really fucking sad.

Bald guy is a walking joke.  Like, not even just on the internet - his life is a punchline.  Long story short, a guy I met at a stag came across this guy somehow in the professional world; he applied for a position or solicited for something.  In either case, his resume came across stag guy's desk and instantly became an office joke - it was like 3 pages and had shit like moderating an online forum and "driving long distances" on there.  Stag guy pulled up bald guy's Linked-In on the golf course and everyone had a laugh.  Then Stag guy explained someone in the office Googled bald guy's name and his youtube videos popped up, the first of which being titled "The Jew Question".  

If you look at his Linked-In now, he's currently "self-employed".

We watched a few of his videos and you just want to punch him.  "About to make a video, let me just light this cigarette so I can wave it around like a sophisticated man would".



Cobra has a point about militant feminism, but these clowns are too fucking ridiculous to be taken seriously at all.  The answer lies elsewhere.

[PyroMenace]

Something I've learned over the past year when surfing the interwebs and reading these kinds of discussions on feminism and other over serious topics on video games is that the issue with a lot of it is the judgmental and prosecuting tone... or just perhaps how we perceive it to be that way.

Gpw's thread title is the perfect example, because I used to feel the way, and any sort of comment just felt like a finger pointing straight at me, but now it is more along the lines of, "Hey I know you play a lot of video games, but did you ever think about this?" Perhaps if some people could learn to readjust their approach, there wouldn't be half as much backlash as there is. Because honestly, if you actually do start feeling oppressed by feminism, then that's like the first step out a couple that puts you uncomfortably close to MRA, and nobody likes those people.

[gpw11]

Something I've learned over the past year when surfing the interwebs and reading these kinds of discussions on feminism and other over serious topics on video games is that the issue with a lot of it is the judgmental and prosecuting tone... or just perhaps how we perceive it to be that way.

Gpw's thread title is the perfect example, because I used to feel the way, and any sort of comment just felt like a finger pointing straight at me, but now it is more along the lines of, "Hey I know you play a lot of video games, but did you ever think about this?" Perhaps if some people could learn to readjust their approach, there wouldn't be half as much backlash as there is. Because honestly, if you actually do start feeling oppressed by feminism, then that's like the first step out a couple that puts you uncomfortably close to MRA, and nobody likes those people.

MRA's are terrible. Not like terrible people, but terribly annoying and.....no, don't get me started.  But I think generally if people just knew how to frame their statements and/or questions to not be inflammatory as you say we'd be a lot better off in general.  The thing is that most of the people who do know that and bother to do it just aren't involved in these kinds of things - they're doing classy stuff in classy hats.

[Cobra951]

This shit is simmering instead of cooling down.  Apparently, some publications are bringing it up to a boil.

[Quemaqua]

Such dumb shit. I feel even better today, then, about my decision to get rid of Facebook. Yet another channel of useless bullshit I can completely ignore now.

[Xessive]

I have no idea what all this fuss is about. I've been reading the comments and some of the articles and I still don't get it.

I consider myself an avid gamer and I have next to zero exposure to this particular discourse. Maybe it's because I'm keeping busy with work and playing games. When I head to game media sites it's usually for reviews, previews, let's plays, or commentary on games. I rarely ever look at articles about drama.

When it comes to identifying as a "gamer" it's not as challenging as some of the over-the-top stuff I've read in some of these articles. And this is coming from someone who grew up in a society that generally viewed gaming as a children's activity; it was easy to mock. Long before the internet and networking, we found a way to make gaming a social affair, whether we were playing together or trading cartridges.

I guess I just don't get why "gamers" as a social group are in the spotlight for the drama of a few attention-seekers.

[idolminds]

I don't understand some peoples complaints. If you aren't one of the people sending threats, posting personal information, or just generally being an asshole then those articles aren't talking about you! I am a "gamer" and I don't feel threatened by those articles because I am not one of the people they are talking about and shaming. If you are, then perhaps you should rethink your behavior.

[Cobra951]

@X:

I'll map out the prevailing theory:

(1) Aggressive feminist challenge to traditional videogame "tropes" (there's a snake's word if I ever heard one).
(2) Alleged corruption of game media by this Zoe Quinn [edit: meaning she did the corrupting], who apparently also belongs to #1 above.
(3) Backlash by some common folk against #2, and by extension, #1.
(4) Counter-backlash by so-called beta-male (or white-knight) game-pub journos and group #1.
(5) Loop around into a scalding frenzy.

[Xessive]

@X:

I'll map out the prevailing theory:

(1) Aggressive feminist challenge to traditional videogame "tropes" (there's a snake's word if I ever heard one).
(2) Alleged corruption of game media by this Zoe Quinn, who apparently also belongs to #1 above.
(3) Backlash by some common folk against #2, and by extension, #1.
(4) Counter-backlash by so-called beta-male (or white-knight) game-pub journos and group #1.
(5) Loop around into a scalding frenzy.

Thanks for the brief, Cobra