Author Topic: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad  (Read 24965 times)

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday, September 02, 2014, 09:14:57 PM »

Offline Xessive

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday, September 02, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »
Sarkeesian's perspective is quite biased. I'm not saying female characters aren't sometimes portrayed as victims or sexualized, it happens depending on the themes and the artists creating them. Plus she clearly neglected so many of the positive portrayals of females in games, playable and non-playable.

Her criticisms can be just as easily applied to books, films, and even paintings. I don't think 50 Shades of Grey necessarily portrayed women in a good way either, as popular as it is with women. I know, it's a cheap shot at a poorly written book :P

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #42 on: Tuesday, September 02, 2014, 09:58:47 PM »
I dont know, we all made a collective sigh as we heard about her project starting, and we sighed again when she put out her first video. But now... its not even about that anymore, I honestly stopped caring so much and now I'm at the point where I hope she doesn't stop. Since she put the spotlight on all the disgusting man babies out there so everyone else can tell them to grow the fuck up.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday, September 02, 2014, 10:26:42 PM »
Thats kind of the ultimate irony. If people were just giving calm normal reactions and rebuttals then they would just be some videos that showed up online and got maybe a few thousand views. But the hate that came pouring out in her direction ended up just giving her more exposure and helped prove her point.

I don't necessarily agree with some of the games she chooses to demonstrate her point but there are enough actual examples to make you stop and go "Hey, that does sorta happen often." So the dialog should be "Is this a real problem, can we do something about it? Should we do something about it?" Instead its turned into "Holy fuck there are a lot of real assholes coming out of the woodwork over some criticism."

Being a gamer has become such a strong portion of a persons identity that criticism or perceived attacks on gaming is seen as a personal attack on themselves, so they lash out. Maybe this is the real problem and we should be talking about it? I don't know but these kinds of reactions aren't acceptable.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 05:03:50 AM »
No question that there are some scathing assholes out there, but there is something more serious happening here.  Allegations of corruption, nepotism and basically sleeping around to get review scores first were attempted to be censored, then were answered with a concerted backlash of articles (within 48 hours of each other) to shift all the blame to gamers and bash them for it.  It seems to me the game media themselves are feeling threatened, and overreacting.

I don't know if I've ever posted my position on the freedom I think all art forms must be given (including games, of course), so let me make it plain now, because it's at the heart of my horror over what's happening.  Artistic freedom is nearly absolute.  Art needs not adhere to anyone's political or religious beliefs.  Pixels and polygons have no human rights.  If I want to write a game where the player goes to his harem of large-breasted submissive blondes after clubbing baby seals to death, I have every right to do so.  The feminist spearhead is more than just simple criticism.  It's aiming to suppress and repress, with its main weapon already well-known, the fear of being labeled misogynistic, or a bigot.  Bring those guns to bear against developers, publishers and media, and soon we have artists and writers shuffling their feet, looking down and perhaps abandoning their freedoms.  Fuck that.  This needs a retort, and while I agree that it could be more mature than it has been so far, at least it has finally come.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #45 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 08:05:10 AM »
I honestly don't see any attack on artistic freedom, more just calling out what some of it actually is, which is insensitive and misogynistic. It's more of a shift of perspective on the art form. Sarkeesion may use bad examples, but the heart of the issue is there.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #46 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 08:41:39 AM »
I already answered that viewpoint, but to reply specifically to your post, artists are free to be as misogynistic as they want to in fiction.  It's fine to criticize such fiction.  It's not at all fine to try to censor it, or otherwise suppress it.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #47 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 09:00:40 AM »
Which is an extreme case scenario, not the goal in any sound feminist arguments I've read. 

Offline Xessive

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #48 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 09:01:30 AM »
I guess what initially bothered me about her perspective is that it doesn't address the idea that some of themes in videogames are reflective of our society rather influencing it. She assumes that all videogames are purely influential and have not been influenced at all by society.

Ungh, why do I waste my mind on this?!  ::)

Ok, this is not directly related but there's a parallel.. Remember a few years back when some guy in Denmark made those offensive cartoons and "muslims" had a massively disproportionate overreaction? Yep, man-babies going apeshit.

Muslims is in quotes because it was an ironically non-islamic reaction, fueled by rage and violence. Much like this scenario.

I think it has to yield the same reaction from me: shun it calmly and walk away. Just walk away.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #49 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 09:27:27 AM »
The thing is that gaming is escapism, to many of us.  The last thing we want is for it to reflect the social ugliness we deal with every day, in the real world.  I'm in the game to immerse myself and escape, not be indoctrinated into the prevailing social agenda.

Here is the best article I've read yet about the whole (as he calls it) kerfuffle.  If you read nothing else on the subject, read this.  I don't agree with everything he said, but it's quite expository and insightful.  This Forbes author is also one of us.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #50 on: Wednesday, September 03, 2014, 12:40:39 PM »
That was a good one, thanks for pointing it out.


Offline PyroMenace

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Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #53 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 08:47:30 AM »
Neither of those addresses the key issue that has me paying attention, namely the use of colluding game media to intimidate studios and developers into compliance with leftist agendas, which aim to force artists to modify their art to suit a politically correct view of humanity and human activities.  These people want to impose on fiction--on words, pixels and polygons--their social mandates and restrictions.  Criticism of books or other media is a noble tradition in our society, and I don't begrudge anyone for doing so, even if I disagree with their politics.  Bullying those who create them into altering their artistic vision to suit an elitist ethic is only a tradition in places like The Third Reich.

Quote
I’m going to paraphrase Dennis Prager, where he talks about [when] you see the term social justice you have a modifier on the term justice. So, politely ask your social justice friends what is the difference between social justice and justice, and see how they answer that. Prager goes on to say there’s justice or injustice, and he describes social justice as the egalitarian ideal; equality. I like to call it, “sameness.” None of us are the same. We’re all individuals. I’m a firm believer in the individual and individual liberties, individual rights and individual sovereignty. The egalitarian ideal is that everyone is the same and controlled by a vanguard elite.
From the Adam Baldwin interview

The issue of the corruption money brings into everything is not what gets me.  That has been happening forever, across the board, most shamefully in government.  What gets my attention is the social elitism, enforced by a group who has acquired the power to do so through corruption and collusion (if it's fair to separate those two words).

Quote
Are there trolls out there? Yes. On both sides? Yes. We don’t know who they are, as most of them are anonymous. You can’t name them in real life or know who they are, so I ignore them. They are not a part of the story, and you can’t hide behind them.
From the Adam Baldwin interview

Saying that criminals and trolls define the #GamerGate movement is like saying that abusive priests define Catholicism, or terrorists define Islam.  Define, or invalidate?  Take your pick.  Both are equally wrong.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #54 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 09:09:23 AM »
We are actually on the same page here. My only issue with your stance is the way you are perceiving the threat... which is exaggerated with words like Third Reich, changes that come from people with fanatical and often insane propositions to change in culture and political environments. And when I read that, and sit here and knowing we are discussing videos games, I just can't take the threat you are talking about seriously, at all.

I also I read that interview, and its Adam Baldwin. Not sure if you have kept up with him over the years, but the dude is known to be quite the asshole. Everything I took from it just felt attention seeking and egotistical.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #55 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 10:34:33 AM »
I have no desire to start reading about this debacle in detail, so I have not. I truly don't even know what the crux of it is and I truly don't care. I've spent way too much of my life getting involved with shit like this and I'm tired of it. There's only so much activism and outrage I'm willing to bear the burden for, and this is out of my sphere, at least at the moment. But I agree with what Cobra is saying, even if I don't know exactly the relation, and Pyro, I think it's wrong to say "well, it's just videogames". Firstly, videogames are huge now. There is no "just" to soften the impact of what they are. For a lot of people going forward, people under 30, this will be one of their primary frontiers for new art and ideas. IDEAS. Games don't always do so much, just like movies don't always, but there will be plenty of them that move and push in distinct philosophical or moral directions, and those will be all the more powerful due to the interactivity. Interactive art is going to be a true battleground for a lot of this sort of thing in the future, and it absolutely doesn't pay to dismiss it.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #56 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 11:24:01 AM »
Well right, I perfectly understand the significance of the medium. I will admit I laid out the dismissive comment (even though it's thrown around in arguments constantly here, by almost everyone, and even recently). My point is the mob mentality that I read subtlety in Cobra's comments, and that's probably mostly on me. But I'm trying to say is let's wait with the pitch forks and see what happens before condemning people looking for a change albeit sometimes incorrectly, it doesn't mean we need to start the war. It's the emotional reaction that has created such terrible backlash, and it needs to be checked.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #57 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 12:26:27 PM »
We are actually on the same page here. My only issue with your stance is the way you are perceiving the threat... which is exaggerated with words like Third Reich, changes that come from people with fanatical and often insane propositions to change in culture and political environments. And when I read that, and sit here and knowing we are discussing videos games, I just can't take the threat you are talking about seriously, at all.

I also I read that interview, and its Adam Baldwin. Not sure if you have kept up with him over the years, but the dude is known to be quite the asshole. Everything I took from it just felt attention seeking and egotistical.

Well, it was Adam Baldwin who apparently came up with the #GamerGate hashtag.  Asshole or not, it's his prominence and involvement that pushed the backlash into critical mass.  The interview I quoted is a prime source in the ongoing drama, not some random jackass spouting off his personal bile.

The Third Reich was an extreme example.  I was just making a point, and obviously Nazis killing Jews by the millions makes the subject here pale to insignificance (as do terrorism and child abuse by priests).  I'm not trying to blow it out of proportion.  Having said that, persecution of artists by an elite group determined to impose their views, with the power to do so, cannot be ignored.  It flies in the face of freedoms we take for granted, and if allowed to grow unchecked, would result in de facto censorship across the board.  Rather than Nazis, a better-fitting analogy might have been McCarthyism .

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #58 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »
Completely agreed, but let's find a better example than that of the recent events that transpired.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #59 on: Thursday, September 25, 2014, 12:56:09 PM »
Well said on all counts.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re:
« Reply #60 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 08:14:31 AM »
Wow, I really do not keep up in videogame news. I have never heard of the #gamergate thing before and don't really have a good sense if what it is about.  Some girl slept with some guy and her boyfriend raged on the Internet and something about how females tend to be portrayed in games?  I guess I don't see what all the hoopla is about.

Offline Xessive

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Re:
« Reply #61 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 09:20:10 AM »
Wow, I really do not keep up in videogame news. I have never heard of the #gamergate thing before and don't really have a good sense if what it is about.  Some girl slept with some guy and her boyfriend raged on the Internet and something about how females tend to be portrayed in games?  I guess I don't see what all the hoopla is about.
Haha that was me until Cobra enlightened me on the situation :P

The story is totally blown out of proportion.

Also, I'm getting sick of the "#[insert topic]gate" mimicking "Watergate" memes.

I wonder if this has impacted GamersGate.com at all.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #62 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 12:38:41 PM »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #63 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 01:54:41 PM »
Yes it was.  But reading the articles on labor exploitation and gender divide linked in that piece--which the author uses to say that we must accept them if we want better games journalism--reveals a complete schism in validity.  While the labor-exploitation article deals with a subject that should trouble any fair-minded reader. the article on "gender divide" is really no such thing.  A valid article on gender divide, equivalent in merit to the one on abuse of labor, would focus on the balance of men and women working in the industry at all its levels, from grunt to CEO.  This article (in Polygon--what a surprise) is pushing for the art of videogames and the marketing of videogames to fall in line with the politically correct ideals imposed on so much of society.

So, no, L. Rhodes.  I reject your argument that I must embrace both these articles if I sincerely want higher journalistic standards.  The first reports abuse; the second pushes an agenda.  You make good points, but please choose your examples more carefully, and never use an article from one of the publications under fire to make a point to supporters of #GamerGate.  You'll lose them in a heartbeat.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #64 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 03:47:14 PM »
Sure the article links to a publication that is questionable, fair enough, I'm sure its not going to win any Gamergate hearts over, but being as that is, your article associating Gamergate with Adam Baldwin is the other side of that coin.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #65 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 09:39:23 PM »
#GamerGate is Adam Baldwin's hashtag.  He came up with it.  I don't see how the center can suddenly become the fringe.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #66 on: Sunday, September 28, 2014, 11:46:12 PM »
It doesn't even matter. You're much more interested in the political side of it, which I fully respect and you are more aware of it than I am. I just completely feel the human side of gamersgate has completely lost touch and any sort of ideal they are striving for, they have completely lost it in an entangled mess of shitty behavior. Adam Baldwin can keep it.


Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #67 on: Monday, September 29, 2014, 07:27:44 AM »
Now you're generalizing, which is the opposition's best defense for the indefensible.  I already used two examples of generalization about much more tragic issues, and I'm not going to bring them up again.

It's funny that you should think I'm interested in the politics of it.  The irony is that politics is precisely what I want to see get away from my videogames.  Games should be about fun, talent and creativity, not social agendas.  Those who disagree are free to create their own games to compete in the marketplace.  They are not free to disrupt or suppress others, which is why I got somewhat involved.  As I said before, the corruption alone would not galvanize me like this, because corruption is everywhere, and I've sadly become numb to it.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #68 on: Monday, September 29, 2014, 08:06:15 AM »
Quote
Now you're generalizing, which is the opposition's best defense for the indefensible.

Except I'm not really defending you from anything. Just going over and over with the same point which I know you acknowledge. I'm also trying to skirt away from politics of the whole issue, yet it's your prerogative to remind everyone, except everybody gets it. Your issue is shrouded around a bigger one which again.. I have went over and over again. There's nothing else to discuss. This whole thing isn't really complicated.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #69 on: Monday, September 29, 2014, 03:33:08 PM »
You seem even more determined to call me out, as if I'm doing something wrong, or saying something extremely contentious.  I'm doing neither.  I found your comments in the other thread irritating, because (1) it's not your call what I discuss in which thread, and (2) my response was to a topic being brought up in the linked article, and by the thread's author.  Also, I don't keep harping on something I've already said, except as needed to reply to the constant challenges from you.  Otherwise, every post I've made in this thread has contained new information, and relates to the topic of the thread.

And there will be more to come, I'm sure.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #70 on: Tuesday, September 30, 2014, 11:24:37 PM »
I've followed this thread and clicked links.  I have no idea what anyone is talking about. 

I even Google searched terms I've come across in in the posts and still have no idea.  I'm missing something vital here.  Something key to understanding why anyone really gives a shit.   It's mind boggling.


Offline scottws

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #71 on: Wednesday, October 01, 2014, 07:35:48 AM »
I've followed this thread and clicked links.  I have no idea what anyone is talking about. 

I even Google searched terms I've come across in in the posts and still have no idea.  I'm missing something vital here.  Something key to understanding why anyone really gives a shit.   It's mind boggling.
Ditto.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #72 on: Wednesday, October 01, 2014, 09:15:26 AM »
I've followed this thread and clicked links.  I have no idea what anyone is talking about.  

I even Google searched terms I've come across in in the posts and still have no idea.  I'm missing something vital here.  Something key to understanding why anyone really gives a shit.   It's mind boggling.



Yeah what the hell is everyone talking about?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #73 on: Wednesday, October 01, 2014, 07:19:27 PM »
Intel removes ads from Gamasutra in wake of GamerGate

Quote from: Intel
Our ads were not a reflection of supporting certain article stances or shifts in editorial positioning. We have since decided to pull our current ad campaign off Gamasutra.

Quote from: Gamasutra
@BuckSexington Yes, our partners at @intel were flooded with complaints over a recent opinion piece, and they did pull an ad campaign.
https://twitter.com/gamasutra/status/517415198492467202


That's part of what they're talking about, anyway.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #74 on: Wednesday, October 01, 2014, 10:36:47 PM »
If someone can summarize everything in a few lines I would appreciate it. It seems significant enough for Cobra and Pyro to be upset at each other.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #75 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 08:12:18 AM »
I posted this in the thread a while back.  It's sketchy, but it will do as a starting point.

@X:

I'll map out the prevailing theory:

(1) Aggressive feminist challenge to traditional videogame "tropes" (there's a snake's word if I ever heard one).
(2) Alleged corruption of game media by this Zoe Quinn [edit: meaning she did the corrupting], who apparently also belongs to #1 above.
(3) Backlash by some common folk against #2, and by extension, #1.
(4) Counter-backlash by so-called beta-male (or white-knight) game-pub journos and group #1.
(5) Loop around into a scalding frenzy.


As an illustration to point #4, take a look at this.  It also serves as a brief, if biased intro to the topic.

My interest is strictly the backlash against the aggressive feminist movement to dictate social policy in videogames (not videogame production, or developer staffing--I mean the content of the free art form known as videogames).  Everything else is someone else's cross to bear.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #76 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 01:33:39 PM »
Here you go, Pug. Its not a short summary, but this is a topic that will be very hard to give a short explanation for without simply painting one side or the other has "the enemy". But there are no "neutral" articles so you might need to read a few before you come to any conclusions.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #77 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 01:43:32 PM »
There are those who are fighting, sure. Then there are those of us playing and enjoying games.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #78 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 05:13:12 PM »
Quote
Counter-backlash by so-called beta-male (or white-knight) game-pub journos and group #1

This is the worst term on the internet - beta-male.  It's always thrown around by the most socially inept retards out there with their panties in a bunch;  guys who subscribe to philosophies like "MRA", "PUA", or "The Red Pill".  Guys who go on internet forums trying to break down life to a science and series of formulas in order to get what they want because they generally just can't do it on their own and aren't happy being themselves.   Yeah, those are real alpha motherfuckers right there.   That's the definition of being alpha - whining, complaining, and being something you're not.   

"You either don't give a fuck or are somewhat defending something I don't like?  You're so beta"

No, motherfucker, I'm just content. You know, probably because I already have all that shit you're spending your life trying to get.  Grow up.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #79 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 06:26:56 PM »
Man, this should tell you how far this has spiraled out of control.

A Linux kernel developer is refusing to fix Intel bugs after Intel pulled their advertising from Gamasutra because they hosted an article written by Leigh Alexander who was outraged over the backlash and harassment that Zoe Quinn received after her ex-boyfriend wrote a blog post detailing their breakup.

Welcome to #GamerGate.