Author Topic: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad  (Read 24971 times)

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #80 on: Friday, October 03, 2014, 05:08:07 AM »
Man, this should tell you how far this has spiraled out of control.

A Linux kernel developer is refusing to fix Intel bugs after Intel pulled their advertising from Gamasutra because they hosted an article written by Leigh Alexander who was outraged over the backlash and harassment that Zoe Quinn received after her ex-boyfriend wrote a blog post detailing their breakup.

Welcome to #GamerGate.

It goes to show that it's all-out war, with bad people on both sides, anger and fear on both sides.  I see it as a boiling-hot offshoot of the general cultural war in the country.

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. . . anti-women #GamerGate campaign . . .

That's where I stopped reading his opinion.


Edit:  Did you mean the opinion piece that leads off with this headline:  'Gamers' don't have to be your audience. 'Gamers' are over.  Now why would that upset gamers? (Yeah, OK.  Sarcasm, obviously.)

I went on to read it in full.  This guy is no better than the trolls he likes to bash.  He lumps everyone in the same category of infantile misogynists, and tells gamers everywhere that their identity is done, because their pastime in its traditional form is done.  They don't own anything, and they're out of touch.  He's raging just as much as the lowest common denominator.  

Now remember, this is a gaming magazine, a gaming magazine telling gamers that they'll soon go the way of the dodo.  Think about it, man.  This is going to transfix a lot of people, many of whom won't be basement infantile sexist trolls.

Edit 2:  Read some of the comments to the article.  You don't have to read far to see where my particular concern about artistic freedom comes in.
« Last Edit: Friday, October 03, 2014, 05:58:18 AM by Cobra951 »

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #81 on: Friday, October 03, 2014, 09:11:57 AM »
Man, this should tell you how far this has spiraled out of control.

A Linux kernel developer is refusing to fix Intel bugs after Intel pulled their advertising from Gamasutra because they hosted an article written by Leigh Alexander who was outraged over the backlash and harassment that Zoe Quinn received after her ex-boyfriend wrote a blog post detailing their breakup.

Welcome to #GamerGate.


Haha.  I laughed out loud at this. 

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #82 on: Thursday, October 16, 2014, 05:16:34 AM »
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12384-Xbro-GamerGate-Interview

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I've personally been against the phenomena of 'social justice warriors', as well as the path certain gaming publications have taken in recent years (more and more discussions on morals, feminism, misogyny and other non-game related issues, and less talk about actual games and the industry). Initially I didn't want to speak out, thinking it was just another drama, but I think it has reached a point where gamers became fed up with being called all those things.

. . .

If you think your idea is special/unique/deserving of attention and fame, go out there and give it life. But don't slander, harass or criticize game devs for not making it for you. It's not how the world works.

. . .

. . .  I believe that ultimately the game devs coming out in support of the gamers is what will end this whole scandal, or at least tip the balance so much in our favor that they (the SJWs and other groups of 'special snowflakes') will simply stop trying to interfere with our games and culture in such an aggressive way.

. . .

If you think the gaming industry needs a different story, they go and write one, but don't impose your agenda on existing games.


Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #83 on: Thursday, October 16, 2014, 12:18:28 PM »
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If you think the gaming industry needs a different story, they go and write one, but don't impose your agenda on existing games.
Funny, that's exactly what Zoe Quinn is doing. Look at the reaction she got.

Also, someone pointing out things they have an issue with in your game is not them imposing on you. Having critics agree with the person pointing out those things is also not imposing. That's just how criticism works. They are still totally 100% free to make any game they want. It may not sell well but that is hardly the critics fault if the customers agree as well.

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If the game appeals to people, it will be a success. If there are a lot of people out there that don't like such content, it will be criticized and the sales will be low.

Yes, exactly! If you make a game that appeals to a lot of people then good on you! But if you make a game and it turns out, oh hey this is pretty offensive, I don't like it, I'm not going to buy it, and I will tell others about it...that's fine too! That's how the market works. No one is being censored. If a big AAA company isn't going to make Big Titty Blasters HD because critics will pan it and no one will buy it, that isn't censorship that's just business.

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That being said, a game should get a low review score if the story and script is bad (at the end of the day, there are people that enjoy Saw very much). Review scores should not be low if the game has violent or misogynistic themes.
See, this is wrong. Declaring a story or script "bad" is subjective, it is the reviewers opinion. It being violent or misogynistic might be the reason the reviewer thinks it is bad (maybe it glorifies those things, maybe it handles them in a way they feel is insensitive, whatever). Considering the score is a reflection of the reviewers opinion, why wouldn't (or apparently shouldn't) those things affect it?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #84 on: Friday, October 17, 2014, 11:01:11 AM »
What if your game is about a white family in the suburbs.  The dad is a secret agent, and the wife stays at home and raises the kids.  The game is action-heavy, but also has homey moments with the happy family the dad is proud to be out there protecting from the nefarious dark forces that are trying to take over the world.  The better he does his job, the better his home environment remains.  Poor performance would mean crime in the neighborhood streets, or school shootings where he loses a son or daughter, or his wife gets abducted, and he has to go save her.

Is that offensive?  Would that justify a lower score for (a) not being diverse, (b) not featuring alternate lifestyles, and (c) embracing traditional family roles?

You're right.  A reviewer for Polygon can go ahead and bash this game however he or she wants.  As long as the rationale is spelled out clearly, there is no deception.

This is unrelated to what drew me to that piece, though.  My focus remains sharp.  It's harassment and blacklisting of developers in the name of social agendas that has me sticking this out.  No one has the right to impose their views on artists or their creations.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #85 on: Friday, October 17, 2014, 01:58:04 PM »
Completely spot on. At this point if Anita Sarkeesian announced she was making a game oriented around feminism I would wonder if she would be actually capable of doing that with so many people ripping information out from her and stopping her in her tracks inside and outside the online domain. It's why I'm sticking this out.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #86 on: Friday, October 17, 2014, 02:22:27 PM »
A review has some subjective elements, of course, but it has to assess a product objectively. Naturally, any reviewer will have an opinion and share it; that's why we read reviews and try to match up with the reviewers with whom we most identify. However, the facts are a critical part of any review.

It doesn't need to be a controversial issue that brings this to light, it happens just as easily when a journalist has to review a game of a genre he doesn't even like. Take a look at the Gamespot reviews of Dead Rising 3 on XBone (score 7/10) and on PC (score 3/10). The game is practically identical on both platforms but was reviewed by two very different people. When you read the PC review it's evident that the reviewer marked the game down based on his opinions alone; he knocked down aspects that were praised by other reviewers including Gamespot's Xbox One review. His issues were with overt sexism and extreme violence etc.

Here's a an excerpt of my comments on that specific review:

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I'd understand if it got a lower score due to overwhelming technical issues but Nick's [the reviewer's] gripes with the game are not related to that at all, in fact the Xbox One version was criticized for poor performance issues and it still got a 7/10. Nick's comments contradict what was praised in the Xbox One version, which was reviewed by Martin Gaston.

This seems like a case of assigning the reviewer to a genre he's not even interested in. It would be like getting someone who loves shooters like Call of Duty but never plays turn-based strategy games to review a game like Civilization 5 then criticizing it of being boring, having zero headshots, and being offensively slow-paced.

You can't review a product solely based on an opinion, otherwise reviews may as well just be "loved it, totally appealed to me, had a lot of boobs" or "hated it, totally offended me, had too many boobs." A reviewer needs to assess the factual and technical aspects of a game as well "how's the story? How's the gameplay? Does it run well? Are framerates/resolutions restricted? How are the controls? Texture quality? Do you think the developers could have done something differently?" Y'know, constructive criticism.

The point is with videogame journalism having a political agenda will only stir up people for all the wrong reasons (never underestimate NerdRAGE). I'd say that applies to any kind of entertainment journalism!

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #87 on: Friday, October 17, 2014, 02:57:30 PM »
Is that offensive?  Would that justify a lower score for (a) not being diverse, (b) not featuring alternate lifestyles, and (c) embracing traditional family roles?
Not to me. It probably wouldn't affect the score I gave the game unless it was...I dont know, strangely whitewashed. Like they went out of their way to NOT have those things. But thats a weird fuzzy line so it would depend on the game. And maybe a different reviewer would see it differently and that would change their score.

A good example is that new trailer for Hatred. You play as an angry dude that goes out to kill civilians just because. The trailer feels gross and not appealing. On the other hand...is it that different from Hotline Miami which I loved and am stoked for the sequel? Ultimately you're murdering digital people but its the tone and style that can make a difference in how that feels.

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This is unrelated to what drew me to that piece, though.  My focus remains sharp.  It's harassment and blacklisting of developers in the name of social agendas that has me sticking this out.  No one has the right to impose their views on artists or their creations.
Do you have examples of this actually happening?

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"how's the story? How's the gameplay? Does it run well? Are framerates/resolutions restricted? How are the controls? Texture quality? Do you think the developers could have done something differently?"
The thing is most of those are still subjective. I might think the story sucks where someone else loves it. Like Braid. I liked how it played but didn't like the story outside of that one last level twist that I thought was clever. Does it run well? That depends, you ok with 30FPS with some dips or are you full on 180p 60FPS or nothing kind of person? I think the controls of Monster Hunter are pretty shit but fans of the series wouldn't have them any other way. You get the idea.

I think part of this is going to be up to getting to better know the reviewers themselves. If you know their likes and dislikes then you will have a better sense of what they are meaning in their reviews. Tom Chick is a very controversial reviewer and has given low scores to games that were GOTY at other sites. But thats because it is Tom Chick, he likes games a certain way and doesnt seem to get into the hype machine. I Like his reviews, even if negative about games I like, because he will point out flaws where others might gloss over them because everything else is good. There is room for both. Find a reviewer that you trust and has similar taste in games and then you pay more attention to their reviews.

I still when looking at games on metacritic I read one positive review and at least one negative review. I want to know what people see in the game.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #88 on: Saturday, October 18, 2014, 02:39:31 AM »
Oh yeah, Idol they are subjective but the facts have to be stated so that the reader can make an informed decision. Like you said about Monster Hunter, the fans love the controls, so if the controls were changed it in any way would be prudent of the reviewer to mention that. The idea is to present the facts then share an opinion on them e.g. "The game is locked at 30 fps but it runs flawlessly; locking the framerate combined with the film-grain effect works in its favor giving it an authentic film visual style. The option to disable film grain is available in the options."

If I were to write a review on Dark Souls I'd be listing things as negatives which everyone else praises about the game; you would likely walk away from that review thinking "He doesn't like that?! Really? That's what I want in the game!" So if I give it a 3/10 anyone who disagrees with my opinions on it would read that as a 7/10 because what I dislike about it is what they actually like about it. Which further illustrates why review scores are pointless. Also why the reviewer must at least be interested in a genre otherwise the review is heavily biased.

I usually do the same thing with Metacritic; I need to know what the nature of positive/negative reaction is. Sometimes something that one reviewer found negative is something another reviewer considered a positive.

I like IGN's summaries of "+ and -" at the end of each review which help illustrate the major points highlighted by the reviewer.

So far my favourite reviews are from GameTrailers; the reviewers get into the details and address the various aspects of a game in review, sometimes with special mentions to fans of a series or newcomers.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #89 on: Sunday, October 19, 2014, 12:08:45 PM »

A good example is that new trailer for Hatred. You play as an angry dude that goes out to kill civilians just because. The trailer feels gross and not appealing. On the other hand...is it that different from Hotline Miami which I loved and am stoked for the sequel? Ultimately you're murdering digital people but its the tone and style that can make a difference in how that feels.

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sbto YoungZer0 • a day ago

I am a polish gamer. I did not know about this game existence until yesterday. Never mind what I think about this title for now.

What is important is that this organisation that those devs are a part of, is straight up white supremacist. By that I mean that they hate everyone who is not polish, white and Catholic. It is not about simply not liking Muslims, this organisation causes riots every year on Polish Independence Day. Stateing that Poland is being controlled by communist Jews from West Europe - that is UE.

So you really don't have a full picture here. But knowing this maybe explains why they are making a game about Breijvik, I think it is a key to this travesty.
http://www.vg247.com/2014/10/17/epic-distances-itself-from-mass-shooting-spree-game/

I read about Dennaton Games, its two founders, and I read the entire synopsis of the Hotline Miami storyline.  I'd say they're in a very different place from Destructive Creations.  But I still would not deny either of these studios their artistic expression.

But then there's the question of moral equivalence, which perhaps you're suggesting?  That's a long and arduous conversation, one I'm not eager to join.  Disdain for a game over politically incorrect plot or characters is a far cry from something as universally revolting as the premise for Hatred.

It boils down to what I said earlier:  As long as the reviews include the rationale for low (or high) ratings, there is no deception, and I have no problem with them.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #90 on: Sunday, October 19, 2014, 01:15:16 PM »
Oh wow, I didn't follow up on Hatred after seeing the trailer. That sure is....something.

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It boils down to what I said earlier:  As long as the reviews include the rationale for low (or high) ratings, there is no deception, and I have no problem with them.
Guess we're in total agreement then. High five!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #91 on: Monday, October 20, 2014, 07:52:24 AM »
You and I are in agreement about almost everything, man.  I guess I've gone off the reservation somewhat with this GamerGate thing, but I haven't lost it, really.  Not yet anyway.  :)

Edit:  Speaking of going off the reservation:

http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/10/gamergate-nowhere-on-my-site-does-it-say-we-are-journalists-says-destructoid-owner/

You can follow the hyperlink bread crumbs down the rabbit hole as far as you care to go.  I'm not going to elaborate, except to say that this shit really is happening.  The longer it gets swept under the rug, the more it festers.
« Last Edit: Monday, October 20, 2014, 09:11:30 AM by Cobra951 »

Offline idolminds

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #92 on: Monday, October 20, 2014, 03:23:39 PM »
Yeah some dumb shit going around. Leigh Alexander made her own partial list of stuff that people should be concerned with. Hopefully everyone can move past the last 2 months and actually make progress on some of it.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #93 on: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 12:46:48 AM »
You and I are in agreement about almost everything, man.  I guess I've gone off the reservation somewhat with this GamerGate thing, but I haven't lost it, really.  Not yet anyway.  :)

Edit:  Speaking of going off the reservation:

http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/10/gamergate-nowhere-on-my-site-does-it-say-we-are-journalists-says-destructoid-owner/

You can follow the hyperlink bread crumbs down the rabbit hole as far as you care to go.  I'm not going to elaborate, except to say that this shit really is happening.  The longer it gets swept under the rug, the more it festers.

I'm just going to chime in here and say that the Game Journos Pros thing is a giant biggest circle jerk witch hunt that has yet to produce a smoking gun, this included.   Pretty much everyone who is talking about this doesn't really quite understand what illegal collusion entails and seems to think that people involved in an industry aren't allowed to talk to to each other and associate.  Fun exercise, take any profession or even professional role, type that into Google, and then type in "association" or "society" after it.  Wow. A lot more formal AND out in the open than this mailing list.   

As someone involved in a few associations regarding my industry and a few mailing lists of personal contacts with these associations, I find the reaction to this amazing.   Editors of Kotaku and Destructoid talk to each other?  How fucking surprising. You know what I talk to with other project managers from other companies in my industry?  Who the fuck to avoid or what you do in a given situation.  Mind blowing. 

 I remember the Pinsof story pretty well and the guy dug his own professional grave as soon as he tweeted and outed someone.  And I even totally agree that THAT whole situation is kind of bullshit. It was a scam and the people who were buying into it had a right to know. But, and here's the thing, he works for a company that relies on advertisers and has to try it's best to not rock the boat.   That company came under a lot of flack for that and when faced with the decision, they decided that cutting him was the best option. I don't necessarily think that that part is bullshit - the bullshit part in my mind is that that they'd receive a lot of flack for it in the first place. But fair enough, I don't make the rules on these things and  that happens, and as his boss said - he has an obligation to protect his brand - punishing Pinsof was a way of doing it.  So he was put on probation or temporary leave, but he just couldn't stop tweeting about it - rocking the boat further.  So he was fired.  Kind of a shit situation for the guy but I'm sure numbers were crunched and the shit storm he brewed among certain special interest groups was deemed as more detrimental than letting this particular employee go.

But you know that part above where I said he dug his own professional grave as soon as he tweeted and outed that trans person? I fucking lied.  No one would give a shit about that in six months.  It's a controversial topic, but everyone gets it - special interest groups rattled pitchforks, he was let go to quell them. The company saved face.   He really dug his own grave the days after when he just wouldn't shut the fuck up and got in a very public bitching match with his previous employer and his previous co-workers. Game Journo Pros aside, you know why he can't get a job?  Because the second someone Googles his name, which is pretty much the second the short list of applicants is made, the first thing that comes up is that he loves airing dirty laundry.  Even if I don't have any dirty laundry I don't fucking want him.  Now, take into account that the places he's applying were probably running the story when he was in the middle of this dramatic shit storm.  No one is touching him. Rightly so - there's about a thousand other people applying to write about videogames for a living that are probably just as talented and don't have the risk of bringing all that baggage with them.

What is very telling is his conversation with Shu, who I somehow remember from reading EGM in the late 90's and not since at all. Basically, (and I'm half cut and can't remember if I just saw this on your post or a tweet that it was linked to) he's looking for a job and asking Shu, who's telling him he can't help him out.  No biggie, but the screen shot is pretty obviously (unless I'm completely wrong - which happens an amazing amount of the time) at the tale end of a conversation where the guy was denied and then brought up how Shu hired someone else who was controversially fired from one of the big player blogs.  Shu's response was "Yeah, well, I knew Gary and had worked with him.  There wasn't any risk there and it was different.  Best of luck finding something else, man!"  And that was used as Pinsof's example of how he's been blacklisted. Someone else was hired because they knew someone.

And that's the thing - he hasn't been blacklisted in anything close to the traditional sense - he's just proven himself to be undesirable very publicly.   Getting back to Game Journo Pro, the smoking gun here is literally (It's not, I'm paraphrasing everything after the first sentence) some guy saying "Hey, can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what you shouldn't do...this guy is contacting people looking for a job. Think back six months or use Google." That's it.  That isn't collusion, that's pretty much an email or conversation I have every third week and then we laugh about some idiot in our industry.  THAT'S THE SMOKING GUN. This fucking guy who released nothing but tweet after tweet of emails he had with his co-workers and boss regarding his suspension, which then lead to his termination, which then led to more public tweets and hissy fits is looking for a job at your organization.  Think about it.   Oh, and also, a special interest group known for shitting bricks and mobilizing hates him. Specifically.  Just maybe think about it.

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm certainly not a lawyer in Florida, but in my pursuit of two different degrees I've done a fair amount of work and case studies regarding market manipulation.  Specifically price setting and illegal collusion. My professors weren't rockstars or judges, but I like to think that I have a better grasp than most when it comes to what exactly illegal collusion consists of, even in this case.  A casual email group of industry professionals is not a conspiracy and "Hey, I can't tell you what to do, BUT....." is not illegal collusion. As powerful as

    "Wrongful combinations against workers.—If two or more persons shall agree, conspire, combine or confederate together for the purpose of preventing any person from procuring work in any firm or corporation, or to cause the discharge of any person from work in such firm or corporation; "

sounds, the real truth is that "conspire, combine, or confederate" has a deeper implication of willing parties in pre-existing illegal action.   So, the way I interpret this to mean is the same as how you interpret pretty much any law dealing with illegal collusion in circumstances like this, which is to mean with the presence of duress, undue influence, promotion, or offered compensation. Well, that and the semi-colon really leads way to the meat of the law they referenced.  Because realistically, in any common law system (of which Florida is one), no judge can say that it's illegal for two or more people to get together and say X shouldn't have Y job.  Because, you know, that's how every judge who isn't singularly appointed (as well as board executives, and other executives, and ...well, a shitload of people) are granted their jobs. Ever sat through an interview with two or more managers and not been hired?  You have a fucking case!

To put it simply, in order to prove that someone is blacklisting in my jurisdiction, you have to prove that they're forcing you to make that decision in some way.   Not that a bunch of like-minded individuals are causally sitting around and discussing why no one in their right mind should hire this notorious and now publicly known individual who has shown he has difficulty getting along with co-workers and management.  Beyond that, due to the nature of journalism in general, you'd be hard pressed to prove Gary Webb was blacklisted, let alone some kid from Destructoid. 

Again, it's a shitty situation for that guy.  I don't feel he did anything wrong from the start - it's how he handled it in the aftermath that fucked him over.  That said, I can't blame his boss for giving him flack or eventually letting him go, it's just a combination of the politics and the nature of the industry that he's in. He should have known that.

What I do find a little bit ridiculous is that this is brought up a year fucking later as evidence of conspiracy in the industry and that this guy has gotten right back on board.  Good job buddy, I'm sure this will open some doors for you.  Go back to school. Seriously.  Because even if you want to switch sectors of journalism no one will want you.

But all of this is kind of splitting fucking hairs hairs of a sort.  The real issue here is that HASHTAG gamersgate is so concerned with finding conspiracy that's it has turned into another kind of witch hunt. If you read any of my posts you know I have pretty much zero respect for Games Journalists as a profession and even I think this is retarded.

And you know what it is?  I don't get it.  Who cares? Cobra, I get what you're saying, and I respect you for saying it because we absolutely need people like you to get angry or just fed up with other people trying to impose their way of life and their ethical value on everyone through mob rule and guilt exploitation.  It's a counterbalance to what they put out there and it's awesome.  At the same time, I can't get into it because I come across these sites and just can't stop focusing on the flaws.

I find that in life, no matter what you're doing, you will find an endless amount of people who have a problem with it for whatever reason.  It's gory, it's sexist, it's homophobic, no, it's homoerotic, no I DON'T KNOW, I JUST DON'T LIKE IT.   The trick is just to tell them to fuck of, and I appreciate that you guys are doing that, because I'm waaaaay too caught up in my own shit to do it.   Just don't get too carried away, or else you start sounding like them a bit.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #94 on: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 12:53:08 PM »
Cobra, I get what you're saying, and I respect you for saying it because we absolutely need people like you to get angry or just fed up with other people trying to impose their way of life and their ethical value on everyone through mob rule and guilt exploitation.  It's a counterbalance to what they put out there and it's awesome.  At the same time, I can't get into it because I come across these sites and just can't stop focusing on the flaws.

I find that in life, no matter what you're doing, you will find an endless amount of people who have a problem with it for whatever reason.  It's gory, it's sexist, it's homophobic, no, it's homoerotic, no I DON'T KNOW, I JUST DON'T LIKE IT.   The trick is just to tell them to fuck of, and I appreciate that you guys are doing that, because I'm waaaaay too caught up in my own shit to do it.   Just don't get too carried away, or else you start sounding like them a bit.

Hence my "off the reservation" introspection comment.

I read every bit of your WoT.  I always love to read what you have to say when you put your heart into it.  I wish I had that facility to let it all pour out so intelligibly.  It sometimes takes me hours to get a decent-sized post [I just edited right here, for example] to get close to what's in my head.  Maybe that's why I shy away from IRC.  Too immediate.  Stage fright?  Too stressful.

Thanks for recognizing the good fight in the midst of the clusterfuck.  That's all I ask.  But about collusion, tell me that this isn't.  I picked that link out of a Google search for "gamers are dead articles collusion".  You may find better hits if you care to take the time.  This is just a quick example, and I'm not sure who's behind the "analysis" or what his/her tilt is on the whole thing.

I'm not naive.  I know when the press gets a particular button pressed, they all join in a focused feeding frenzy, leading to similar articles.  But this "death of the gamer" theme did not originate with the external events.  This was something arrived at internally, and all emerged in print in a period of 48 hours or so.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #95 on: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 01:42:22 AM »
Thanks, that actually means a lot - I think the trick to it is to drink 6 IPAs without eating first and just roll with it. 

I just wrote the longest fucking post (well, less lengthy than the last one) and lost it.  To sum it up, this whole thing reminds me of 2001-2002, being in 200 level political science classes where 80% of the people knew just enough to put strings of thoughts together and had a general impression that they needed to be incensed about SOMETHING to be relevant. The end result being that I'd sit there and listen, only to find out that even if I agreed with the base principle of what they were saying, they had alienated me with how they were saying it or some periphery information and I really didn't give that much of a shit anyway.

The core principles of #gamersgate as I see it is don't let special interest groups dictate content - games media, get your shit together and stand up for yourself or you will be irrelevant and useless. I get that and agree with it. Special interest groups have every right to voice displeasure and do what they can to promote their goals, the flipside is that everyone else does to.  Market dictates who ends up on top. General consensus is that the media is currently very one sided in that whole battle right now.  I don't entirely disagree, and even if I did I would recognize that #gamersgate would still be well within reason - as voicing displeasure is how it works.

That said, the pseudo-intellectual bent and cloak and dagger accusations behind both sides really alienates me and makes me not give a shit.  That's kind of my thing - I get the main principle, but I can go into an article and not know what the fuck anyone is talking about.  I get what you're saying with the article you posted, I have my reservations about that point, but still could get behind it.....but the tone of the whole "movement" just really makes me want to not care.  I promise you I could aggregate an equal amount of articles with buzzwords about Michael Sam getting cut from the Cowboys practice squad in the next 48 hours to lead you to believe that sports journalism thinks its related to him being gay, but that's not the reality of the situation.  And you know what?  It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if a bunch of junior journalists sat down and decided to write that gamers as a culture are dead, because there is no end game there, or at least one that I can see.

"Gaming culture is dead.  We're all wearing skirts now"

How about just saying no?   And yes, I get that posting about it IS saying no, but everyone is making it seem deeper than I figure it is, and that's what really makes me want nothing to do with any of it.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #96 on: Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 05:43:07 AM »
Well said. I pretty much share gpw's opinions as expressed so far. This is a debate I just haven't wanted to put the energy into. It's annoying enough having to catch so much of it by proxy.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline K-man

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #97 on: Thursday, October 23, 2014, 08:30:55 AM »
I still don't know what's going on with it, but I can't shake the overall feeling of "I really don't give a shit".

I can't even bring myself to even begin reading on it. 

Offline scottws

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Re:
« Reply #98 on: Thursday, October 23, 2014, 05:10:30 PM »
I'm kind of right there too, K-Man. I guess it's because I found video game journalists to be mostly garbage and not worth paying any attention to a decade ago and I don't really consider myself a gamer anymore, so that aspect doesn't have me worked up either.

I do agree with Cobra's stance that games, like books or movies, are a form of art and who cares what the mainstream thinks of the art you want to create and people shouldn't try to censor art, but I'm just not invested enough to care at this point.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #99 on: Friday, October 24, 2014, 06:21:28 AM »
haha the whole saga has been summarized down to a few pages on the internet for people like us but I still can't be bothered to read it. I find OW so interesting, like that whole discussion about resolutions on the Assassin's Creed thread. I identify with you guys on so many levels and consider you to be my friends, but I feel like I just don't care about any of these things any more to this degree.

I am sure the feeling will come back. It always does. But for now, I just find it all fascinating.

I feel like living in a third world country has taken away the luxury of caring about these things so much. Maybe when I am back in Canada.

Offline K-man

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #100 on: Friday, October 24, 2014, 06:36:16 AM »
Pug, I think it's hard to get excited about stuff like this when you have experienced a series of real problems.  The death of my parents profoundly changed my general outlook on life.  I'd imagine what you've experienced has changed you in much the same way, probably even more so than me.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #101 on: Friday, October 24, 2014, 04:58:44 PM »
Well, that's a bit unfair.  My family transplanted itself from a different culture 44 years ago, when I was 16; then my father, the sole real breadwinner in the family, died 19 years after that.  He was only 63.  My ex-wife took my girls and moved to New York, under the pretext of a vacation.  After much trying to fix that, I finally gave up about 5 years later.  9/11/01 stopped the flow of money to the smallish IT companies in this area, and one after another, my opportunities dried up.  Companies folded, or were swallowed up by others, or downsized.  It felt very much like being in a roomful of dominoes.

We all go through personal hell in this sad world.  That doesn't mean we stop caring about the things we find important.  There's a lot to it, all spelled out that-a-way ^^^ somewhere.

I don't care about resolution either.  I grew up on games with pixels the size of dice.  I'm thrilled to get 720p as a minimum.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #102 on: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 12:17:41 AM »
I am sorry Cobra. Not trying to dilute anyone's pain or personal struggles.

Offline K-man

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #103 on: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 05:39:02 AM »
Well, that's a bit unfair.  My family transplanted itself from a different culture 44 years ago, when I was 16; then my father, the sole real breadwinner in the family, died 19 years after that.  He was only 63.  My ex-wife took my girls and moved to New York, under the pretext of a vacation.  After much trying to fix that, I finally gave up about 5 years later.  9/11/01 stopped the flow of money to the smallish IT companies in this area, and one after another, my opportunities dried up.  Companies folded, or were swallowed up by others, or downsized.  It felt very much like being in a roomful of dominoes.

We all go through personal hell in this sad world.  That doesn't mean we stop caring about the things we find important.  There's a lot to it, all spelled out that-a-way ^^^ somewhere.

I don't care about resolution either.  I grew up on games with pixels the size of dice.  I'm thrilled to get 720p as a minimum.

Hm, OK.  First of all my post wasn't meant to offend.  I personally found that after dealing with so much personal tragedy in the past few years that my tendency and desire to get worked up over things that ultimately don't deserve that level of attention lessened.  Not trying to belittle anyone else's situation because I know there are billions of people on this planet that are less fortunate than I am.

That being said.  This "movement", or whatever it's being called, seems to be the absolute shittiest parts of the internet conglomerating under a "cause".  And everything I've read suggests that I don't need to waste significant amounts of time participating in it.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #104 on: Saturday, October 25, 2014, 07:25:29 AM »
Oh, whoa!   No offense taken here, guys.  Simple point: personal stuff gets heavy for all of us eventually.  We should still care about whatever is worthy.  I didn't mean for it to be a guilt trip.  Sorry I went overboard with the personal examples.

Yeah, there are a lot of assholes involved in this movement.  I would argue that the other side can get just as vicious, but that doesn't excuse anything.  My only argument would be that any heated cause attracts more than its share of crazies.  They're not the story, although they're very much what the opposition tries to make the story.  This much of a sustained fight doesn't come from spoiled brats.  They don't have the attention span.

Offline scottws

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #105 on: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 09:58:15 AM »
More Cobra fodder here.

I think a big problem with Internet pseudo-anonymity is the hyperbole.  It's not isolated to this GamerGate thing, but here is an example from the linked article:

Quote from: WeHuntedTheMammoth
So goddamn disappionted [sic] in you, Stephen, for giving this charlatan the time of day. it looks like my greatest fear has finally been realized.
Source:  Ars Technica

Seriously?  Your greatest fear?  Some blowhard appearing on Stephen Colbert's show?  Come on.

It's like something else I read about some actress in New York recording 10 hours of harassment she experienced just walking around New York.  A short documentary was made about it and they were getting all kinds of death and rape threats.

What the hell is wrong with these people?

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #106 on: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 02:09:22 PM »
The link on that address seems to display weird Scott, even when I got to that page the address bar even puts it up incorrectly. But here's the link that will bring you there:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/10/stephen-colbert-speaks-truthiness-to-gamergate-interviews-anita-sarkeesian/

Offline scottws

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« Reply #107 on: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 03:13:05 PM »
Fixed it. I had quotes around the URL.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #108 on: Thursday, October 30, 2014, 11:55:55 PM »
More importantly, who the fuck says "charlatan" in this day and age?  Seriously.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #109 on: Friday, October 31, 2014, 03:15:53 AM »
 :-\

Uh . . .  what's wrong with "charlatan"?  It fits the lady to a tee, and I can't think of a perfect synonym offhand.  ("Demagogue" is worse, and not a synonym.)

Offline gpw11

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Re:
« Reply #110 on: Sunday, November 02, 2014, 11:35:04 AM »
Its just kind of dated - I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the word in natural speech.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #111 on: Sunday, November 02, 2014, 11:56:21 AM »
Speaking as the resident self-appointed language nazi, I don't think it's an uncommon term. Not one you use in everyday speech too often (mostly because subject doesn't frequently call for it), but common enough in everyday writing about relevant topics.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Xessive

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #112 on: Sunday, November 02, 2014, 12:44:26 PM »
I think we've used terms like "draconian" so frequently that it warrants terms like "charlatan." :P

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #113 on: Sunday, November 02, 2014, 08:07:20 PM »
I AM TERRIBLE AT JUDGING PEOPLE.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #114 on: Saturday, November 08, 2014, 11:57:24 AM »
Its just kind of dated - I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the word in natural speech.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #115 on: Saturday, November 08, 2014, 08:57:31 PM »
VINDICATION!

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #116 on: Saturday, November 08, 2014, 11:34:09 PM »
I think you guys live sheltered lives.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline gpw11

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #117 on: Sunday, November 09, 2014, 12:39:25 AM »
We're just from a hipper, younger generation

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #118 on: Sunday, November 09, 2014, 07:08:09 PM »
Yeah, a generation of CHARLATANS.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Your hobby is bad and you should feel bad
« Reply #119 on: Sunday, November 09, 2014, 09:33:07 PM »
I don't know why this word has gone out of fashion. It would especially be useful in this part of the world.