Topic: Valve in trouble with Australia

[idolminds]

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has instituted proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia against Valve Corporation (Valve) alleging that Valve made false or misleading representations regarding the application of the consumer guarantees under the Australian Consumer Law (ACL).

Oh snap!

The ACCC alleges that Valve made false or misleading representations to Australian customers of Steam that:

    consumers were not entitled to a refund for any games sold by Valve via Steam in any circumstances;
    Valve had excluded, restricted or modified statutory guarantees and/or warranties that goods would be of acceptable quality;
    Valve was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer; and
    the statutory consumer guarantees did not apply to games sold by Valve.

“The Australian Consumer Law applies to any business providing goods or services within Australia. Valve may be an American based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by the Australian Consumer Law,” ACCC Chairman Rod Sims said.

“It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.”

“The consumer guarantees provided under the Australian Consumer Law cannot be excluded, restricted or modified,” Mr Sims said

Meanwhile, in America...

[Cobra951]

 . . . the corporate oligarchy keeps telling us to eat cake.

[MysterD]

So, the real question is this - what does Australia have for digital software + digital distribution laws?

This ain't the old days of disc-based DRM - where if you didn't have your disc(s), you couldn't boot + play your games. A lot of PC gaming has gotten away from that.

Even in the mid-to-late 90's, a lot of PC games - you transferred contents from your disc to a hard-drive - which is what EULA's were for. Game-disc checks were often only needed for booting the game-up - and that was it! EULA's were allowing you to make a copy of the game, more or less - so they could let you "patch" it, if need be. See - Discs were static (ROM); hard-drives aren't. Games aren't these static things anymore (since the files are often installed on hard-drives); they are treated like a service, often updated + improved upon. One patch could "fix" a "broken" product. These ain't the Nintendo days!

Digital-distributed software is always going to be this huge gray area on things like refunds, any online-style DRM, online account-based stuff, and things of that nature. When going digital - you can't just go to the store, return your game, and lose access to your game-copy.

That's why DRM is there - it's (supposedly) to regulate who uses the game. Most DRM doesn't really do a great job of that, these days - and well, that's a story for another time entirely.

Software are not physical products like cars anymore! I can take my car back to the dealer - and yep, I no longer have access to the car. Games, that can be a gray matter - as we can back-up games + game-files very easily before we return them. Something like a real car - that'd be hard to copy.

While Steam does have CEG for DRM, some games on Steam underneath it all are actually DRM-FREE - i.e. once you grab the files from Steam, they will work without even Steam installed. For example - Enslaved: Journey to the West is one; and Wizardry 8 is another. If I asked for a refund on one of those games on Steam that are DRM-FREE and I got a refund to get it pulled from my Steam account - then I guess Steam's CEG should force to uninstall it. But, Steam's SSA allows you a different convenience - to allow you to make back-ups. if I already had the game-folder stashed elsewhere for a back-up (in another folder somewhere else, on another HDD, on a BR disc, on some DVD's, etc) - I could still get those files, reinstall them, + run the damn thing w/out using Steam anymore!

I would guess asking for refunds on sites like GOG for my DRM-FREE games - or any other digital site that has games DRM-FREE, for that matter - would be weird, too.
You could get your refund - and never lose your copy of a said game!

Usually, when you get a refund - you're losing your physical product + getting your money back.
In a digital world - that is not always entirely true; it's a gray matter.

[idolminds]

If you were going to pirate a game its far easier to grab a torrent then to buy it on Steam and attempt to defraud them with a refund. And that would only work a few times before they catch on to you doing it repeatedly, probably locking your account.

GOG actually has a 30-day money back guarantee if you have technical issues with a game and GOG can't solve them. Sounds in line with Australia's law here.

Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.

Hell, Origin offers refunds. And thats "evil" EA.

[gpw11]

So, the real question is this - what does Australia have for digital software + digital distribution laws?

This ain't the old days of disc-based DRM - where if you didn't have your disc(s), you couldn't boot + play your games. A lot of PC gaming has gotten away from that.

Even in the mid-to-late 90's, a lot of PC games - you transferred contents from your disc to a hard-drive - which is what EULA's were for. Game-disc checks were often only needed for booting the game-up - and that was it! EULA's were allowing you to make a copy of the game, more or less - so they could let you "patch" it, if need be. See - Discs were static (ROM); hard-drives aren't. Games aren't these static things anymore (since the files are often installed on hard-drives); they are treated like a service, often updated + improved upon. One patch could "fix" a "broken" product. These ain't the Nintendo days!

Digital-distributed software is always going to be this huge gray area on things like refunds, any online-style DRM, online account-based stuff, and things of that nature. When going digital - you can't just go to the store, return your game, and lose access to your game-copy.

That's why DRM is there - it's (supposedly) to regulate who uses the game. Most DRM doesn't really do a great job of that, these days - and well, that's a story for another time entirely.

Software are not physical products like cars anymore! I can take my car back to the dealer - and yep, I no longer have access to the car. Games, that can be a gray matter - as we can back-up games + game-files very easily before we return them. Something like a real car - that'd be hard to copy.

While Steam does have CEG for DRM, some games on Steam underneath it all are actually DRM-FREE - i.e. once you grab the files from Steam, they will work without even Steam installed. For example - Enslaved: Journey to the West is one; and Wizardry 8 is another. If I asked for a refund on one of those games on Steam that are DRM-FREE and I got a refund to get it pulled from my Steam account - then I guess Steam's CEG should force to uninstall it. But, Steam's SSA allows you a different convenience - to allow you to make back-ups. if I already had the game-folder stashed elsewhere for a back-up (in another folder somewhere else, on another HDD, on a BR disc, on some DVD's, etc) - I could still get those files, reinstall them, + run the damn thing w/out using Steam anymore!

I would guess asking for refunds on sites like GOG for my DRM-FREE games - or any other digital site that has games DRM-FREE, for that matter - would be weird, too.
You could get your refund - and never lose your copy of a said game!

Usually, when you get a refund - you're losing your physical product + getting your money back.
In a digital world - that is not always entirely true; it's a gray matter.

The Australian thing is because Valve offers no return policy at all, which is kind of unusual and pretty much stems from relative lack of competition.  Google's Play store, for instance, deals with the same challenges and still manages to offer a refund on software products, even if the return period is very small. Valve could easily go that route but chose not to because they know they have nothing to gain and it will only end up costing them sales.

[MysterD]

If you were going to pirate a game its far easier to grab a torrent then to buy it on Steam and attempt to defraud them with a refund. And that would only work a few times before they catch on to you doing it repeatedly, probably locking your account.

GOG actually has a 30-day money back guarantee if you have technical issues with a game and GOG can't solve them. Sounds in line with Australia's law here.
Hell, Origin offers refunds. And thats "evil" EA.

I've always seen a refund as an exchange: I lose my game + access to use it entirely, just to get all of my money back.

About GOG:
It's very interesting GOG would offer that - even when they're giving out DRM-FREE products (at least as far as SP portion go for their games)!
Do they remove the game from your account, when you get a refund?
If they do remove the game - you'll still have your "old" game files, if you kept them somewhere....but if the game ever gets updated and fixed, you'd basically have to buy the product again.

EA's Origin game-client is DRM for their 1st-party games that require it (i.e. which is just about every EA-published PC game after BF4).
I can see them offering-up refunds w/ that service.

Steam is an complicated situation - b/c some of their games are DRM-FREE; some use Steam's CEG DRM for DRM; some use other DRM's (Tages, Securom) and/or other game-clients (G4WL, UPlay, etc). There's no consistency of DRM there, in most cases there.
Not every company uses CEG, some use other third-party stuff, some use CEG + other third-party DRM/game-clients.
With some companies releasing Version 1.0 games in a buggy state, not-working, unstable and other situations of that sort - sure, I could see refunds being offered in that case.
Early Access is an odd duck here - as by buying games in that state, you're basically acknowledging that it's possible you're agreeing to support and buy a buggy + incomplete product.

[Cobra951]

D, you just summarized why cost is no longer the main reason I'm out of PC gaming. 

The service-vs-product thing is entirely self-serving.  Products don't have to be physical things.  And physical products can be copied illegally--even cars.  Just go to China sometime.  The car analogy is my favorite one, because it illustrates the bullshit perfectly.  If a Toyota dealer told you that any car you buy there isn't yours, that you can't modify it or repaint it, that you can't resell it when you want to buy a new one, that you can only drive it on the roads that they approve, and that you can't even lend it to a friend or spouse, you'd laugh in his face and walk across the street to a Honda dealership.  Yet no one would seriously deny that you can't copy the design of the car, set up an assembly plant, and go crank out Toyota clones.  Oh, China does exactly this; but everyone knows it's wrong--probably even them.  What's possible does not define what is, or what is right.

[MysterD]

D, you just summarized why cost is no longer the main reason I'm out of PC gaming.  

The service-vs-product thing is entirely self-serving.  Products don't have to be physical things.  And physical products can be copied illegally--even cars.  Just go to China sometime.  The car analogy is my favorite one, because it illustrates the bullshit perfectly.  If a Toyota dealer told you that any car you buy there isn't yours, that you can't modify it or repaint it, that you can't resell it when you want to buy a new one, that you can only drive it on the roads that they approve, and that you can't even lend it to a friend or spouse, you'd laugh in his face and walk across the street to a Honda dealership.  Yet no one would seriously deny that you can't copy the design of the car, set up an assembly plant, and go crank out Toyota clones.  Oh, China does exactly this; but everyone knows it's wrong--probably even them.  What's possible does not define what is, or what is right.

Difference is - a lot of people have a PC, regardless of its specs. And likely, many people have at least a DVD burner in their PC. One person can buy blank DVD's, BR's, or HDD's very cheap - and make copies of games, files, etc w/ no problem what-so-ever.
I'm sure building an assembly plant to crank out Toyota clones would cost A LOT more $ and you're gonna need a small team, at least.

"Cost" is probably one of the reasons I'm doing PC gaming - I feel like these day and age, I spent most of my $ for games on PC hardware, not games. And I ain't even changed my PC hardware at all yet, since I built my PC - which costed me a little over $1200, when built (it was around when Witcher 2 hit the PC). The only thing I've really done to this PC - so far, is add more hard-drives. So far, that's it. B/c games are riddled w/ DRM (unless you can find DRM-free versions); getting re-released editions w/ everything (content-wise); re-released HD-remasters so quickly (think Re-Masters of these - Deus Ex: HR DC, Metro 2033 Redux, Metro LL Redux; and upcoming planned re-masters for Sleeping Dogs + State of Decay); tons of DLC, Season Passes, and any thing else you can think of - I just ain't spending much per game anymore.

Hell, the most I've spent on a game in quite a number of years was $20 this past weekend for Diablo III: Reaper of Souls (expansion) [PC] at Retail - and I barely, if ever, buy any games from retail anymore. With things like bundle sites like Groupees + Humble Bundles; and PC gaming services like Gamersgate, Steam, Amazon DVG, Origin, etc constantly warring w/ each other for "Best Price" - I find myself spending not even $40-60 on new games; and NOT buying most games ASAP at all. I find myself waiting mostly for 75% off sales or better (off lowest MSRP price-tag), on most games. I have 644 games + 268 DLC's listed on my Steam account + God knows how many other games from other services if I counted and added them all up (Origin, GOG, Amazon DVG, UPlay, GameFly, etc). I also do have a tendency to NOT replay games; and am constantly moving onto "What's next."

I hop on sites like CheapAssGamer - and I hardly see console games prices even remotely anywhere as cheap as what's happening on the PC.

EDIT:
Back to the topic of refunds in Australia - I'm also curious, how much does a game over in Australia cost normally, in US$? And how often do they have sales like we do in the USA?
B/c if it's more expensive in general over the there (like it is some other places in the world) - I could also see more arguments in favor for allowing refunds.

[Cobra951]

I haven't spent more than $20 on a game in a while either.  There are so many games out in the wild now that I think publishers have no choice but to accept lower revenue per copy.  My last few purchases were Rayman Legends ($10), AC4 ($18), Darksiders 2 ($10), Portal 2 ($5) and Guacamelee STCE ($7.50).  I got the digital version of Dishonored free, so I grabbed it even though I had already bought the disc version ($25) a while back.  That extra convenience (no disc swapping) got me playing it again, and I liked it so much that I ended up buying the 2 Daud DLCs ($5 each).

I know the mobile and indie scene have games at almost nonexistent prices, but there are good reasons for that.  It seems to me that the real-world prices of full games, made with real budgets, are fairly close on consoles and PCs these days.  That leaves only the high cost of PC hardware and the online shenanigans of Valve and imitators as considerations.

Edit:  My understanding is that games are quite a bit more expensive in Australia, so you may have a point there.

[MysterD]

I haven't spent more than $20 on a game in a while either.  There are so many games out in the wild now that I think publishers have no choice but to accept lower revenue per copy.  My last few purchases were Rayman Legends ($10), AC4 ($18), Darksiders 2 ($10), Portal 2 ($5) and Guacamelee STCE ($7.50).  I got the digital version of Dishonored free, so I grabbed it even though I had already bought the disc version ($25) a while back.  That extra convenience (no disc swapping) got me playing it again, and I liked it so much that I ended up buying the 2 Daud DLCs ($5 each).

I know the mobile and indie scene have games at almost nonexistent prices, but there are good reasons for that.  It seems to me that the real-world prices of full games, made with real budgets, are fairly close on consoles and PCs these days.  That leaves only the high cost of PC hardware and the online shenanigans of Valve and imitators as considerations.

Edit:  My understanding is that games are quite a bit more expensive in Australia, so you may have a point there.

I also think the other thing is gamers are realizing the shenanigans that are being pulled by publishers - announcing DLC's before a game is out; certain companies pushing DLC's galore; Season Passes; re-released editions w/ all content; re-mastered editions in HD. And now, dev's + pub's are devaluing their games very quickly. That stuff - that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Also tact on DRM, game-clients, digital distribution sites at war - we get this picture painted of total chaos. That also adds to the "dev's + pubs devaluing their games very quickly" thing.

For the most part, it just ain't worth spending big $ on games ASAP anymore.

For me, on PC games, to compare...
I spent not too long after Dishonored (base-game) for like $12 from Amazon [retail box]; and then around $8 for its GOTY Edition from GameFly (just to get the excellent 2 Daud DLC's).
I spent around $6 for AC3; don't have AC4 yet.
Darksiders Franchise Pack was around $13.19 before GC / $9.86 after GC for me (bought in Dec 2012 - includes Darksiders 1; Darksiders 2 + Season Pass + every other DS2 DLC).

[idolminds]

Kotaku Asutralia updates with more.

Today Kotaku acquired the application papers for the lawsuit, which include a list of the ACCC’s demands should its legal action against Valve be successful.

The ACCC is asking that Valve:

– Provide an email address that specifically deals with refunds as per Australian Consumer law.
– Provide a 1800 number to help consumers address any refund issues.
– Provide a PO Box address for consumers to deal with refunds.
– Appoint representatives (the ACCC refer to this person as a contact officer) to reply to consumers regarding refunds.

If the ACCC is successful, Valve will have to implement these changes within 30 days of the court order.

The ACCC is asking that, through these new avenues, each consumer be addressed and dealt with in accordance to their statutory rights as per Australian Consumer Law.

Interestingly, the ACCC wants Valve to appoint an independent auditor to review its consumer redress policy within 180 days of any potential court order. This person cannot be an employee or have any interests in Valve. This person cannot have been involved in the creator of the consumer redress policy. This independent auditor will then have to send a report to the ACCC informing them of how many consumers attempted to get a refund and how many were successful or unsuccessful and the reasons why.

In a separate statement, Valve has already informed us that it plans to co-operate on the issue. “We are making every effort to cooperate with the Australian officials on this matter,” said Doug Lombardi. So it appears possible the ACCC will get what it wants in this case.

[PyroMenace]

I wonder if this will end in either Australia blocking Steam client business or Valve shutting down Steam purchases for Australia.

[idolminds]

I dunno, I think Valve will have to play ball. If they pull out of Australia not only will it just hurt them by cutting off sales in an entire region (over some refunds? Please), but I bet all the big publishers that use Steamworks will have something to say about not being able to sell their games in Australia at all. Either that or they would all have to stop using Steamworks which is the very last thing Valve wants.

[PyroMenace]

Yea... refunds for digital games is hard though since there's a big loophole of playing through a game and then just getting your money back. I know GOG does it (maybe Origin too), just not sure what systems they have in place to stop people from doing that. I guess a large customer service team to handle it all, which I'm sure Valve can do.

[idolminds]

Most of the refunds are limited in some way. For example GoG gives refunds if you're having a technical problem and their tech support can't fix it. You have to contact tech support before they will issue a refund. I guess you could lie about it but you'll have to be pretty good at it. Origin I believe has a very short window for refunds, like 24 hours after you first launch the game. Which is enough to beat a lot of singleplayer games but like I mentioned before, that is a lot of hassle to "pirate" a game and will very quickly get your account flagged if you abuse it. You can just go pirate it straight up and not deal with that crap.

Steam can easily see when you download something, when you play it, how long you played it, and if the game has achievements can see how far you got. I suppose you could do all that offline but again I think the hassle of doing this wont be worth it to abuse. Valve has a lot of leverage too because so many people have large Steam libraries worth hundreds to thousands of dollars...you gonna risk having your account locked to play some SP campaign for free?

[Xessive]

There will always be some apples that try to abuse the system but there has to be a refund system to help customers with legitimate issues.

Most recently people were up at arms about Sacred 3. Valve gives refunds for cancelling pre-orders before the release date so some were lucky, but most people wanted the refund after release, after they had experienced the disappointment.