Topic: I (might get) *got* divorced

[scottws]

I haven't talked to anyone else about this now, except Jennie, but just a little bit ago I decided it was time to acknowledge the very real possibility that I will be getting divorced and start talking to people about it.  Since I'm stuck at work, you guys are first.

Back in October, I was talking to Jennie's sister and she told me that I need to sit down and get Jennie to talk about what's on her mind.  So I did.  It wasn't a long conversation but she told me she wasn't happy and felt "stuck".  Then a couple of weeks later said she wanted to have a kid and was frustrated that I didn't (more on this later).  Just this past Friday she basically told me that she feels disconnected from me, like we are just really good friends.  We've been together for almost eleven years (married almost five) and, while I think both of us might have gotten a little too comfortable in the relationship, I love her more than anything and don't want to split up.  I asked her if she was sure about this, and she said no but she's felt like this since October.  I told her marriages aren't perfect and require a lot of work, and hopefully this is just a bump in the road that we can get beyond if we put effort into it.  I told her I'll recommit myself to her and that I want her to meet me halfway.  We've agreed to make a final decision on our anniversary in June.  Sounds morbid, but at least I have time to try to change her mind but give her a deadline she can use as an out if she wants so it just doesn't drag on forever.

I'm really hoping that it can work out.  We're not perfect, but I don't think any relationship is.  But the signals I'm getting from her are that she can't (or maybe doesn't want to) turn the light switch back on.  She says that she'll treasure the ten years we've had together no matter what, but I think it would just have been a humongous waste of both our time and we owe it to our marriage and our vows to each other to work on it.  I don't know, maybe she doesn't believe in the marriage bond as much as I do.  I recognize that if it really isn't going to ever be better then we should end it and move on rather than drag it out even longer, but I'm just not convinced that she's not just in a bad place mentally right now and it can't be fixed.  I'm a little frustrated in that I feel like ever since she told me she wasn't happy and I've been really trying to show her much more appreciation, do a lot more work around the house, take her out more, send her flowers randomly, etc. but I feel like she hasn't really reciprocated or put in the effort.  We've been together for almost 11 years.  We still laugh a lot at each other's jokes and don't really have a lot of arguments.  I'm having trouble understanding why she isn't trying harder.  

One thing that's driving me crazy is it seems all of this was triggered six or seven months ago by one of her old high school friends she used to be close with dying after being hit by a car.  I'd hear her mention the guys name a bunch of times over the years, but aside from random comments on Facebook in response to each others' posts, I don't think they'd talked since before I knew her.  Anyway, it's like she got this bug that life is too short to waste time on anything that doesn't make you happy and if you feel like you can be happier you should do something about it.  I know I can't really blame the guy for passing away or my wife for her new philosophy on life because I had years prior to put us in a situation where our relationship would survive or even grow stronger from something like that happening.  There is the concept of just being too late.

I wonder too sometimes if I'm fooling myself and if I'm just scared of the change a divorce would bring rather than truly being scared of losing Jennie.  After all, we've been together for more than a decade and our life has a certain routine to it at this point that I'm used to and very comfortable with.  We've been putting a lot of time and money into our house and I really have enjoyed doing that with her and like our house.  I don't want to throw all that out the window and definitely don't want to dump money into renting and furnishing an apartment.  Additionally, I moved to Florida away from my family and friends and have only really replaced that with Jennie's family.  I've had a hard time making good friends down here.  I hang out with people from work from time to time, but wouldn't really say that they are my friends.  I heard long ago that you make your closest friends when you are younger and as you get older and older the less and less likely you will be to kindle a new, close friendship.  It doesn't really help that at age 37 I feel like I'm past most of the social stuff like going out all the time and am not involved in any sports.  Jennie's family likes me and Jennie seems to think we'd still be able to be friends if we got divorced, but I'm not so sure how much time I'd really spend with any of them after the fact.  If we get divorced, it won't really because of mutual feelings and I'll probably feel too awkward to be around her anymore and maybe her family too.  I'm not sure.  I do talk to her sister and mom a lot, so it's tough to say.  I'm also scared of being away from my stepson and my dog.  I really love those guys.  Some people think it's crazy, but my dog is literally like one of my kids to me.

About the having a kid thing...  We dated for six years before getting married.  During that time, she told me on more than one occasion that she didn't want to have any more kids.  I actually saw myself having kids back then, and that's one of the reasons we didn't get married for so long.  Eventually, I came to terms with it:  did I really want kids of my own or did I want to spend my life with Jennie?  That felt like my choice.

Some of you may or may not know that my dad died of a very rare brain disorder a few years ago before he was age 60 and that there is also family connection in that most of my dad's brothers and sisters have it too (four out of five) and one of them had died from it years before my dad did.  Unfortunately, the disease is adult-onset, with miniscule signs gradually, slowly appearing starting in the early-to-mid 30's and really showing up en force in the mid-to-late 40's.  After my dad died a few years ago, I decided that I didn't want kids for two reasons.  The first is that I know that it is possible that I carry genes that lead to a miserable, early end and I don't know for sure if I have it yet or not.  That's something my parents couldn't say when they had me.  This will sound weird, but I felt like I owed it to the human race to let my genes die out for the better of the gene pool.  Secondly, my stepson is ever advancing in years.  He's 13 now and will be 14 later this summer.  Jennie and I had talked about it amongst family and (I thought) we were looking forward to being early empty-nesters and had talked about traveling around the world at a relatively young age.  Additionally, it would be too late for a (half) brother or sister to really have any impact on my stepson's personality development or developing that really close bond that many siblings close in age do.  I don't know, maybe these were just my ways of convincing myself I didn't want kids to reconcile it with Jennie's feelings on the matter.

I was utterly floored a few months ago when Jennie told me she wanted to have a kid.  At the time, I told her so, and told her it was a little unfair for her to tell me that just a couple of weeks after she said she was questioning the whole relationship.  Like I would want to have a kid and then have the relationship end right after or something.  I told her that I'd come to terms with not having a kid years ago and she's the one that didn't want one in the first place.  She said she had been feeling like having a kid but didn't bring it up before because I'd made it clear that I didn't want kids.  In any case, I recognize that sometimes people change their minds.  But I really wish she had said something sooner.  I'm not sure it would have really been different; I felt like I didn't want any kids and without the threat of a relationship breakup, I'm not sure I would have given it much more thought.  But she should have talked to me and been clear about how important it was to her.

Ultimately I do want Jennie to be happy.  I really, really hope we work it out, but honestly hope is all I have right now.  Signs right now are pointed in the other direction.  Here's a quote from today in response to me asking the question, "Do you want us to work out or are you just leaning more towards just moving on?":  "It's not that I'm against us working out. Right now, yes, I am leaning towards us breaking up."  Not exactly a vote of confidence.  I was hoping that at least she'd say something like, "I hope we work it out, but right now I feel like we should just move on."

I just wanted to share this with everyone.  I'm in a dark place right now, really sad and scared for what the future might bring.

[idolminds]

Geez man, that really sucks. I don't have anything constructive to say but we're all here for you.

[Cobra951]

Wow.  I'm sorry man.  I've been through this, and made mistakes because of inexperience.  Don't let that happen to you.

(1) Make sure the marriage cannot be saved.  The change is huge, as is the loss, even for her.  She just doesn't realize it now.  Counseling should be the first step.  Hopefully, everyone will get wiser, and understand how much is at stake.  Staying together, even if the relationship is imperfect, is most likely the best thing you both can do by far.  The bond between you is long and strong.  She needs to see that.

(2) If that fails, and you do decide to go ahead with divorce, no matter how much you may think it can be a friendly dissolution, trust me, it can't.  It's an adversarial process where the rest of your life may be at stake.  You need competent representation.

(3) If she wants a divorce, and you don't, that gives you an advantage.  Use it.  Bargain for a position where she does not have any lifelong strings on you regarding her or her kid.  If you can avoid having a state government insinuated into the rest of your life over any kind of support, you absolutely owe it to yourself to do so, regardless of how ugly the negotiation has to get.

The whole thing will be a mess.  You may be convinced that it won't, and for a long while you may think you were right and I was wrong.  That will eventually change.  Avoid if at all possible, while maintaining a healthy, if not ideal, relationship.

[scottws]

She's been through a divorce before, but it was when she was very young, still in the Army, and I believe they were only married for a year.  So she does have experience in the matter, but it is definitely a different ballpark this time.  Other than my stepson, they had little in the way of possessions or assets and both certainly had the housing aspect covered regardless as the Army provided it.  The situation was different too as she caught her ex-husband cheating.

I feel like she maybe has this strange worldview on what marriage is.  It is both of ours' longest relationship by far.  She thinks being "really good friends" is a bad thing but I think it's good.  There are tons of people I've seen that would envy being good friends in a relationship.  We could be more intimate and show more outright affection than we are, but how many people in there 60's+ (no offense intended) do you see that have been married for years and years that are making out or anything like that?  Sure, there are some and I'm sure more do it privately, but from what I have seen relationships seem to take on a friendship quality over time.  Does she intend to keep starting over every decade to get the beginning part of relationships back over and over?  I don't know, I can't answer those questions.

I've got this weird suspicion that she's got some other guy lined up or something and that's why she's emotionally divested.  I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.  The only reason I think it is because she's acting strangely aloof about the whole thing, like she doesn't seem super interested in working on it but still agreed to let me work on it for a few more months.  Earlier she told me that she didn't know if she could stick it out and still "be true to herself", whatever that means.  I'll try to find out what that's about.  But if she feels that way, why is she even waiting?  I don't know, perhaps I'm reading too much into it and she's just as scared as I am and isn't ready to pull the trigger.

One of the sad things is that I've felt that the past year has been one of our better years.  Jennie seemed happier, we got in less arguments, we did more things together... I don't know, maybe that was part of her being disconnected, like she didn't care that much anymore and was just more tolerant of things I did or didn't do.

I'll definitely look into the counseling.  I don't have a very high opinion on psychiatry, but perhaps it can help.  I probably need to pull out all the stops at this point.

[Cools!]

Whatever happens we are all here for you Scott.

[gpw11]

Now you don't have to do that dryer vent at all!  Fuck you, domestic obligations!



But on a more serious note, I've never done it but have friends who have gone through couple's counseling when on very rough ground and they all said it really helped a lot - none of them being the type to just go to counseling without merit either.  I'd say it's something you definitely should be looking into before that deadline hits.  Also, yeah, the kid thing.....you're making the right call there, at least on the grounds that a kid isn't a way to save a relationship - you know, just in case you were dying to find out my opinion on it.

We have very similar issues with our fathers and their disorders and I can definitely relate where you're coming from there.  I can't say it's exactly the same or not, but I'm picking up what you're putting down, so to speak. 

Beyond that, just what Cools said, we listen to Keeb's shitty Korean problems all the time, we're pretty well trained as listeners these days. 

PS Hey Keeb, seriously, just go buy some more Kim-Chi.  They sell it like everywhere and it's seriously not the end of the world.

[Cobra951]

. . .

I've got this weird suspicion that she's got some other guy lined up or something and that's why she's emotionally divested.  I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.  The only reason I think it is because she's acting strangely aloof about the whole thing, like she doesn't seem super interested in working on it but still agreed to let me work on it for a few more months.  Earlier she told me that she didn't know if she could stick it out and still "be true to herself", whatever that means.  I'll try to find out what that's about.  But if she feels that way, why is she even waiting?  I don't know, perhaps I'm reading too much into it and she's just as scared as I am and isn't ready to pull the trigger.

One of the sad things is that I've felt that the past year has been one of our better years.  Jennie seemed happier, we got in less arguments, we did more things together... I don't know, maybe that was part of her being disconnected, like she didn't care that much anymore and was just more tolerant of things I did or didn't do.

I'll definitely look into the counseling.  I don't have a very high opinion on psychiatry, but perhaps it can help.  I probably need to pull out all the stops at this point.

That immediately popped into my head while reading your OP.  But I didn't want to be the one to bring it up.  She "feels stuck".  Stuck . . . how?  You're not an abusive husband, I'm sure.  She's not chained to the house.  She's near her family.  She can do whatever she wants, except one thing.  Yep, there, she is definitely stuck.  I felt stuck that way myself, back in the 80s and 90s, but like you, I felt that marriage vows were paramount, so I never acted on any of the extracurricular opportunities.  But it was emotionally tough, and that may have contributed to the rift in my marriage.

So I'll add this to my third point, above.  Use whatever advantage you can in a marriage dissolution, if it comes to that.  The rest of your life is at stake.  But try to save it first.  However, what the rest of these guys have not experienced is aging into a less ideal time of life.  You don't have forever to find that kind of happiness, or create a family of your own.  Bear that in mind as well.

[K-man]

I've wanted to comment on this thread ever since you posted it, but nothing seems appropriate.  I sincerely hope things end up the way you want them to end up. 

[scottws]

I talked to her a long time last night.  She seems to be in a major funk from her friend dying.  She says it's made her realize that life is short and you shouldn't spend time doing something that doesn't make you happy, but she doesn't know what other things might make her happy.  She can't identify any one thing that's missing from her life or some other thing that she thinks would bring her happiness.  Even the having a kid thing she attributed to the fact that my stepson is about to go into high school and she's about to see him go, but she isn't real sure she wants to start completely over on that either.

In the absence of really knowing what to do, she's been trying to connect with her past.  Her dad was in a band when she was younger and she grew up with music, so she's been reconnecting to that by listening to music all the time around the house.  She also got back in touch with her best friend from the Army and has been talking to her every day.  She used to do that but stopped a few years ago.

I brought up the marriage counseling thing.  She said she didn't want to go.  I told her that I am having trouble understanding why she doesn't want to do things that might help but at the same time doesn't want to just end it either.  She claims she doesn't want to make any kind of major decision and then realize later she was just in a weird place that she'd eventually come out of.

She told me that anniversary deadline in June thing struck her as weird.  I got the sense that I panicked and thought she was looking to end the relationship sooner than she might be and that's why I set a deadline out in the future that I could use to try to work on our issues and resolve it.  It seems that she was picturing more time.

I don't know what's going on or how to fix it.  Like I said, this started back in October but it was really just three events, with the most recent being the most severe:  1) She told me she wasn't happy in October, 2) a couple weeks later she told me she decided that she wants to have a kid, and 3) just this past Friday while out at a bar with one of her co-workers she turned to me and said "Where do you see this going?" and it went from there.

That question on Friday blew me away.  It's like something someone would ask after dating for six months, not after being together for 11 and married five.  What do you mean, "Where do I see this going?"  We're married.  I see us spending the rest of our lives together.

I'll try to work the counseling angle again soon and see if I can convince her to try it out.  In the meantime, I'm just trying to do things like keep the house clean, work on fixing and upgrading the house (in small, inexpensive ways), and make sure that she knows that I notice her and the things she does.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, advice, and most of all for listening.

[Xessive]

Scott, I'm sorry about your troubles. I only wish I could advise you with anything that hasn't already been said.

The least I can do is be here for you, bud.

[gpw11]

That question on Friday blew me away.  It's like something someone would ask after dating for six months, not after being together for 11 and married five.  What do you mean, "Where do I see this going?"  We're married.  I see us spending the rest of our lives together.

Yeah, that strikes me as really fucking weird, but probably one of those things where someone is stewing on something and it just comes out all wrong.  If it makes any difference at all, I totally understand the deadline thing.  Like, I see how it would sound weird to the other person in the conversation, but if you're the one left dangling it makes sense.  It gives you time, but it also gives you a tangible date - a line drawn in the sand.  Nothing can be worse than not knowing what the fuck is going on with someone else and sometimes it's good to have a deadline where you can just say "shit or get off the pot" in order to maintain your sanity.

[Raisa]

I've been so absent from here, I feel like I shouldn't even be commenting but Scott, i guess as someone from the "Venus" race.. I think there is something she's holding back that she's not telling you. Another big issue that pops in is the kid thing.

There's most likely a trust issue somewhere there too that she hasn't brought up.. Sometimes you gotta poke and prod and just make her say it. I swear, women are nuts!

Please don't put deadlines on relationships. Last year was a really tough one for me and yes, it did put a strain on my relationships. It's not fair of have gone through the death of her friend and let things affect your relationship, but that's the way it works sometimes and us women tend to try blame it on someone because we don't want to accept responsibility. It's a funny weird thing.

I've taken a break this year and hoping for the best. Hopefully, if I sort myself out, I can sort out the rest of what happened last year. I hope things work out for you..but let her know you'll be there waiting till she sorts things out if you want to be there for life. It may take her a few days, a few months, or just a few seconds to realize you're serious about trying to work it out.

[PyroMenace]

How has everything been Scott? I wanted to chime in on this but I honestly couldn't give any meaningful advice. I'd probably agree with gpw the most as I would also recommend marriage counselling. Really hope things look better for you two.

[scottws]

So I have an update.  Everything's seemed pretty good since my last update on the situation.  I remain committed to going the extra mile for Jennie to show her that she matters to me and also making sure to avoid doing things I know that annoy her like complaining or making a bunch of sarcastic comments.  I started planning a weekend trip over to Naples, FL and she seemed interested in that.

Honestly, everything seemed pretty great.  She even mentioned that her sister offered some of their airline miles so we could fly to Rome in the next few months and maybe we could do that for her anniversary.  I was honestly thinking things were beginning to click again.  But then she went out for a walk last night, which isn't unusual, and she came back all teary-eyed.  I asked her what was wrong and she just said she was talking to her Army friend and said, "she knows me so well".  I tried to probe a little deeper but didn't really get anywhere.  I had my wisdom teeth pulled a few days ago and have been pretty tired from the drugs and lack of proper nutrition so I went to bed but she stayed downstairs.  I assume she was still talking with her friend via text.

So that kind of knocked me back a peg.

[Raisa]

Scott, for some reason, I couldn't sleep last night after reading and posting on here. But it's a great move to go on a trip together. Takes you both out of your usual situation. That's what my husband and I did and it made a big difference. It was too stressful at home to clearly think.

[Pugnate]

I am sorry that you are going through this. I wrote a long reply and then firefox crashed. I'll write it out again. I can imagine it is a bit like a nightmare at the moment because something is wrong, it doesn't seem to be your fault, and there is no solid solution.

My quick thoughts are that there is no other guy. I think if there was you would have figured it out by now. It is possible that the 'idea' of another guy is interesting to her, but I am just speculating.

It is possible there is some feeling or information she isn't trusting you with. It could just be her feelings or it is because she is sorting them out. Perhaps she isn't exactly sure either. You've been married 10 years and it suddenly feels like there is a distance between you two. Such a distance can occur if there has been an argument, but the worrying thing is that the distance isn't ending because there really is no disagreement.

It is concerning that you had to find out something was up from her sister and she didn't speak to you directly.

Some of the things she's said are what people say when they are in a strange space, but they move out of it in a few days. This strange space is triggered by something, usually related to childhood. I feel like that incident really did shake her. It is something deep and she's coming to terms with it. It is a fear. Possibly an irrational one. But the best place for her to explore this is in counseling.

It seems to be a change in tide. She's woken up one day and felt differently. Every effort you've made at resolving this hasn't seemed to have helped. When it comes to counseling, couples therapists reveal that sometimes the most difficult cases are when only one partner is interesting in resolving things, while the other is reluctant to be there.  

As Raisa said, a vacation could be the best thing. But I feel if you can get her into a couple's counseling that would be better before the vacation. It would help her process her thoughts.

To be honest my friend this seems to have very little to do with something you did wrong, and that's why it seems difficult.

By the way, counselors and psychiatrists are very different. Both require different training. A counselor is intimate and concerned with healing in what I feel is a more effective manner.

Anyway, the reason I feel a vacation would be best is that what seems to have happened is she's woken up one day and decided she doesn't want her life to end with any regrets. A vacation would be adventurous.

The problem may be that the romance and sense of adventure is gone for her. Getting separated from you and pursuing other romantic avenues would be her way of trying other possibilities. She needs to realize that YOU are the romantic avenue.

Sometimes the grass seems greener when it really isn't.

So I have an update.  Everything's seemed pretty good since my last update on the situation.  I remain committed to going the extra mile for Jennie to show her that she matters to me and also making sure to avoid doing things I know that annoy her like complaining or making a bunch of sarcastic comments.  I started planning a weekend trip over to Naples, FL and she seemed interested in that.
Honestly, everything seemed pretty great.  She even mentioned that her sister offered some of their airline miles so we could fly to Rome in the next few months and maybe we could do that for her anniversary.  I was honestly thinking things were beginning to click again.  But then she went out for a walk last night, which isn't unusual, and she came back all teary-eyed.  I asked her what was wrong and she just said she was talking to her Army friend and said, "she knows me so well".  I tried to probe a little deeper but didn't really get anywhere.  I had my wisdom teeth pulled a few days ago and have been pretty tired from the drugs and lack of proper nutrition so I went to bed but she stayed downstairs.  I assume she was still talking with her friend via text.

So that kind of knocked me back a peg.

Don't be discouraged if she is teary eyed again for a bit. She was interested in the FL thing. She'll move back and forth in terms of moods. Just listen to her, hold her hand, and just listen. She needs to understand that you know where she's coming from. She feels like you guys are good friends. This means that either the romance is gone for her, or she feels you don't get her. Both can be resolved.

Can you find out what this 'friend' is saying to her? Seriously, what is it? Is it possible the friend is trying to undermine your relationship?

[scottws]

Well, lots of things have happened since my last update and I figure it's time to chime in again.  Basically, it's over, only I haven't told her yet.  But how did we get here?

Remember how I thought there might be another guy?  Well, there was.  My initial understanding of the timeline until yesterday was this:

October 2014:  HS friend dies, she goes to the funeral in NJ, around this time she realizes she isn't happy and tells me.

February 2015:  She goes to Philadelphia to visit some old Army friends.  I wasn't keen on this because its mostly guys, but I didn't want to be jealous and controlling and if she needed it mentally I wanted her to go.  She does tell me one of the guys is a NJ Devils hockey fan like her and they are going to go to a game but that's it.  After this time, she begins on and off texting with people in an "Army chat" on FB Messenger.

March 2015:  She goes to Houston with her best friend from the Army.  A couple of days before this, my stepson approaches me and was very fearful and says "Don't let her go, or go with her.  She's been texting some guy and I'm worried that something is going on."  He ends up saying something to my mother-in-law that draws some sort of discussion between my wife and mother-in-law.  When I ask what the conversation was about (Jennie didn't know my stepson talked to me), I get "Oh nothing."  She goes to Houston.

March 2015:  I become very suspicious that there is something with this guy she has been texting since Philadelphia.  I notice that sometimes when we're in bed and she's messing with her phone, she sometimes quickly tilts it slightly out of my view if I look over.  Knowing the guy's name from my stepson, I ask her if she has anything to tell me about guys she has been texting.  She reacts defensively, saying two of the Army guys names I already knew and who she had talked to on and off pretty much since I met her 11 years ago, but she does not mention the name I'm looking for.  Very suspicious.

Late March/early April 2015:  We plan a trip to Europe in September, yes after the original deadline for our relationship.  Jennie has been acting normal and I haven't noticed her texting as much.

Early April 2015:  A charity event in Naples occurs.  It's a small 5K with a similar theme to The Color Run, but on a much smaller budget and far fewer participants.  Jennie and I did the event together in 2014, but this year she convinces me that I shouldn't bother going because none of the wives' husbands were going this year and they were going to do a spa day on Saturday.

Early April 2015:  I'm still a little suspicious that something is going on behind the scenes.  At one point, she's in the shower and I'm in the bathroom and she asks me to look at something on her phone.  While I do, a Facebook Messenger IM comes in from some guy whose profile pic is him in a tux.  The picture is really small and I think it might be her cousin.  I go on the computer and go to her Facebook page and look at her friends and find the matching profile picture.  It's this guy whose name I'm privvy to.  He posts some things publicly, so I look through them.  I notice that shortly after (like days) the February 2015 Philadelphia trip, he's posting some sappy stuff about meeting an amazing person.  There is also a post that has some band and a song called "Jenny".  Not long after that, he posts that he's going to Ft. Lauderdale (that's the nearest airport to me).  Very suspicious!  Later that night after Jennie falls asleep, I grab her phone and look at it.  Basically they are sexting (not with photos, but like a text version of phone sex or 90s cybersex).  I haven't mentioned this yet in this thread, but Jennie and I haven't had sex in like four or five months at this point.  Additionally, she invited the guy to come see her in Naples that weekend of the charity event (remember, she convinced me not to come along).  He turned down the invitation, but still, the invitation itself is the major problem here.  My mind is blown and I'm beside myself.  I wake Jennie up immediately and confront her about it.  At first, she's defensive and in denial until I reveal that I looked at her phone and saw the conversation with my own eyes.  Then she admits guilt, that she's ashamed because she's a hypocrite (I once was text flirting with another woman and got caught and was kicked out of the house for three days just for that), and that she will stop talking to him and refocus on her marriage.  She said that nothing happened on the Philadelphia trip and it was only more recently that she started talking to him.  We argue and talk for several hours.  I'm pissed but sleep on it.  After I go through most of the next day, I find myself open to forgiveness.  I love her after all.

Until last week:  No major events.  Jennie still seems somewhat distant, but we are amicable and there are no more suspicious things that I notice.  I do believe she has cut off all communication with the guy and she says she wants to focus on fixing our relationship.  That said, she's friendly with me, we still spend time together, but we still haven't had sex and she shows me next to zero affection and seems to be putting no effort into rekindling our relationship.

Last week:  I actually convince her to go to a marriage/sex therapist and we go to a meeting on Saturday.  She assigns us a short book to read called The Five Love Languages, which basically says that there are five basic signals of love and some people place higher importance in one or two of them and people need to learn each other's language and make sure they are getting the emotional support they need.  I love the idea and begin reading the book.  Jennie doesn't.

This past Sunday:  On Sunday, she tells me she's going to Chicago next week because her best friend from the Army's daughter has a softball tournament there.  I'm hurt because we've never been to Chicago together and she didn't bother to ask if I wanted to go to 1) visit Chicago together and 2) to allay any trust issues I harbor related to her trying to get that guy to come to Naples to see her and now she's going to another city without me not long after that.  Instead of trying to reassure me or talk to me about how I feel about it, she chastises me and basically makes it clear that it's just for a softball tournament and I'd be bored and, reading between the lines, she just doesn't want me to go.  I tell her that I'm hurt and I'm still a little suspicious, but I really just wanted to inform her how I felt about her not asking me.  Her response was "I'M SORRY! JESUS! WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY?!"

This past Sunday:  Then later on Sunday she tells me she is going with her sister to stay at a hotel Tuesday and Wednesday near the Ft. Lauderdale Convention Center since my sister-in-law is going to a week-long training there as she is becoming a franchisee for the company Jennie works for and Jennie has to help out at a booth at the conference anyway.  I'm like, "Why?  We only live 25 minutes from there?  Can't you just drive there?"  She feeds me some stuff about it being easier and a good opportunity to spend quality time with her sister, something lacking since she has two kids under age two now.

Yesterday:  This brings us to yesterday.  At this point, I'm pretty hurt by the more recent developments (to say nothing about the findings in late March/early April).  Then I remember how my stepson was able to gain some sort of insight into something going on before that Houston trip.  I ask him about it, and he says since he was grounded from Playstation, computer, TV, his iPhone etc. at the time, he looked around in our room and found Jennie's old phone that she replaced a few months ago.  He was just looking to play games on it but saw Jennie and that guy's texts.  I dig out the phone, charge it, and do a little snooping.  After all, Facebook Messenger and Google Hangouts are cloud services that synchronized across all devices.  Definitely seems like she stopped talking to that guy, but I look into conversations between her and her best friend as well as another closer friend and her sister.

They all basically reveal several things, pretty much none of which are positive:

1. The two friends seem to be encouraging Jennie to sabotage our relationship in the sense that they were sort of actively encouraging her to talk to the other guy if it made her feel good and not giving her advice to stop it because she was married.  The best friend is a double-divorcee and is working on her third.  The other one is young and was never married but changes boyfriends like shirts.  Her sister was more on my side, but those conversations weren't very deep.
2. There was much more to the other guy thing than I thought and that Jennie told me.  Here are the more revealing texts:

Jennie: "In fairness, Scott doesn't know everything so he is handling a very small dose of what he thinks he knows."
Friend B: "Does he know yall have seen each other?"
Jennie: "Except for Philly, no. And he though Philly was a bunch of people and the only time that [guy's name] and I were alone is when we went to the Devils game and I told him nothing happened. He knows that he came down here because he saw him post that he was travelling to Fort Lauderdale, he asked if I saw him while he was here and I said no."

3. Other texts reveal that, several months ago, Jennie was considering moving up to live with this guy but then abandoned that idea.
4. There are also some posts where she seemed to indicate that she'd work on staying together with me for her stepson until he went to college and then she'd split.
5. There was also a recent one where she thanked her friend from rescuing her from a night alone with me (we went out to dinner as a double-date on said night).
6. There was also one where she said she wasn't sure she would be able to stick it out until Europe.
7. She is annoyed when she sees me reading the love languages book.
8. Her best friend thought I was coming to Chicago, but Jennie said she didn't want me to go.
9. Jennie said: "I don't expect any 'visitors' on this trip. *wink*" regarding the trip to Chicago.
10. It's clear that she cares about me enough to not want me to be hurt and thinks I'm a good person, but just feels utterly disconnected from me and basically isn't very interested any more.

Reflecting on this new information, I think she ran into that guy at the funeral in October, went to Philly to see him exclusively, probably fucked him, he came to Ft. Lauderdale and Jennie saw him, and that he also came along on that Houston trip, and probably fucked her.  Anyway, clearly this is all very bad stuff.  Certainly nothing like trying to repair a marriage.

I'm not sure why Jennie can't just tell me she's done if that's the case and couldn't come clean about the other guy.  I'm not even mad if she had sex with him at this point; I'm mad that she basically lied even after I caught her red-handed.  If so, I wouldn't be all mad about that all over again because that stuff already had happened and was over, but since I learned new information about it it pisses me off all over again.  I don't know why she agreed to therapy if she's not putting true effort into it, unless it's some ulterior motive to get me to waste some money or something.  I suspect she's stringing me along because she's either waiting for some financial stuff to work out in her favor somehow to make the transition easier, truly plans on just having me around for her son's benefit for the next few years, or was just going to stick it out until the September Europe trip so that she had the opportunity to go.

In any case, if I see her tonight, I'm going to try to get her to come clean about the other guy once and for all without revealing my source or what I already know but the answer doesn't even really matter to me.  I'm leaving her whether she tells the truth or not.  I'll be telling her today, if I see her.  It's risky, because I have close friends or family in South Florida other than Jennie's family and the only one that might take me in is her mom, who lives like 20 seconds away from our house.  So I don't have any place to go if it gets bad and don't have a lot of money to live in a hotel temporarily.  I'll be looking at apartments immediately, but that's not exactly a short process.  I'm just hoping that we can live together short-term with the understanding that it's over and then I'll leave as soon as I can.

Pug, if you want to share this with your wife, you can.  It would be interesting to maybe get some insight from the female perspective.  Just please don't post it elsewhere on the public Internet.

Edit: Clarity.

[idolminds]

Damn man, thats rough. But from what you posted there, it definitely sounds like calling it quits would be the way to go. Doing all that stuff behind your back just isn't cool.

[scottws]

Yeah, it sucks that I had to invade her privacy to find this stuff out.  I mean, the fact that our marriage is cracked and needs repair has been an open item of discussion for like six months now and we were talking about it.  The fact that this other guy was involved was an open item too.  I'm just having a hard time understanding why she is still holding back so much from me.  While it doesn't really matter in the end - I need to move on from her - it just bothers me a lot.

Frankly, I'd thought about leaving her several times over the years, including when I found out about the guy the first time.  But each time after about a day of thinking about it, I realized I wanted to try to fix the issues and make it work.  This time I don't feel that at all.  I just feel very disappointed, hurt, and basically feel like the last 11 years of my life were wasted.  Good years too!  I was in my mid 20's when I met her.  And I basically am my stepson's father.  I've known him since before he was three.

[Pugnate]

So first of all, I am really sorry you are going through all of this and that it has been dragged out like a slow car wreck. I really truly feel your pain and frustration. After I read your post I reread mine. I guess I really wanted to believe that it wasn't some other guy. Though I always had the feeling her friends were influencing her.

So here is what I think.

1. Regardless of whether she has misled you for her son or financial reasons, what she has done is inexcusable. She has used you. I now have no sympathy for her.

2. At birth we are all essentially good. Our life experiences condition us. This is why children are purer. The fact that your stepson has been taking your side proves that you are correct. That's a big deal for him to turn on his mother.

3. You've been his dad since he was 3. You are his dad. When the divorce takes place don't worry about losing this relationship. Social media means you guys will still be in touch. Skype etc will help.

4. I also feel sorry for her son. Not only because he is losing a great dad but because his mother has behaving in such a fucked up manner. I am sorry, I know you still love her, but this behavior is just inexcusable. Everything I've read and learned cements the fact that how we behave in relationships as adults is programmed in our childhoods in some manner. I hope this boy doesn't grow up to mistreat his partners the way his mother has you.

5. I understand perfectly that you don't care that she had sexual relations with someone else as much as it is about lying to you. She's been using you buddy.

6. Now comes the hard part. And this is something Cobra will definitely expand better on as I am unfamiliar with American divorce laws. Basically, my advise for now is to just ignore her. Play it cool. That would be really difficult to live with someone you have such negative feelings for. But there is a point to this.

I would pretend that nothing has changed so she doesn't suspect anything. Do what she has done to you. I suspect she has already been to a divorce lawyer. Now its your turn. Go to one. Tell him exactly what has transpired. The fact that she cheated on you and lied about it so blatantly will give you power in the divorce proceedings.

If you think you can't do it - and its not easy to live a lie till you are ready to go on the offensive - then come to terms with the fact that she has been lying to you for utterly and completely selfish reasons. She has misled you so that she can divorce you on her terms when she has used you as much as she can.

It's now your turn.

Playing coy could work in your favor in the sense that the attorney may suggest you gather some evidence (screenshots of texts etc) that she has done all this. He'll advise you how to gather information and begin the divorce while she is not prepared.

I realize you feel sorry for her. But you need to be cold. Keep telling yourself that she feels nothing for you and has been using you.

Yeah, it sucks that I had to invade her privacy to find this stuff out.

I know you feel bad, but that's because you are a better person than her. You did the right thing. You owed it to yourself to find out the truth. For her to share all of this with her friends, family, etc, yet keep you in the dark doesn't speak well of her.

[Pugnate]

Instead of trying to reassure me or talk to me about how I feel about it, she chastises me and basically makes it clear that it's just for a softball tournament

This is what irks me. It's not enough that she's been lying to you, but the fact that she is going the extra mile by making you feel bad/guilty/stupid for suspicions when they are actually true.

It is like me accusing someone of being a criminal, and then they make me feel bad for even considering that, only to cover their tracks.

I am sorry mate, but her feelings for this guy have transformed her into a different person. It is not the Jenny you love.

The only encouraging thing is that you say she has stopped seeing that guy for sure. That's the only silver lining. She wouldn't do that unless she was done with him. Then again, this is probably me trying to see the best in people again.

[gpw11]

I'm just going to chime in really quick and say this:   before you let her know take a screen shot of all these conversations and send them to yourself.    Your lawyer is going to want them and your future bank account will probably thank them.  Beyond that, I'm really sorry to hear about all that.

[scottws]

Well, I talked to her last night.  It's basically over.  I've moved into my mother-in-law's house for the time being and I'm going to look at a six month sublet furnished apartment, which should buy me some time while I look for something more permanent.

It's interesting.  I was mostly mad about the fact that more information about the relationship with that other guy came to light and I felt very betrayed that she continued to lie about it even after I found out.  But my mother-in-law pointed out that it was more disturbing to her that there was an indication that Jennie recently was making statements to others about avoiding me and not wanting to be alone with me.  She said that because the other event with the guy was in the past, was over, and I already knew about it, more detail about it really doesn't change anything.  She's right, but I still felt very betrayed that she hid so much from me.  She should have just told me when she had the opportunity.

But my mother-in-law is right too.  She went to Philadelphia without me.  She went to Houston without me.  She was going to Chicago without me.  And she was planning a trip to New Orleans without me.  It was like she was standing up some separate life that I wasn't a part of.

As for screenshots, I did take screenshots of the most revealing stuff and have them.

[K-man]

Sorry you're having to endure this, Scott.  At least now you know and can begin the healing process, but that's hardly a silver lining.

[PyroMenace]

Yea that's a bum deal man, but like Kman said, you can start putting it behind you.

I agree with you that it is rather baffling she would make some of the decisions she did without some kind of reality check. Maybe she did and just couldn't handle coming clean, but still a bit messed up considering that her family sided with you. Anyway hang in there buddy.

[scottws]

Thanks, guys.

I think a bunch of things led to this point.

Clearly the foundation of our relationship wasn't that strong to begin with or when the other guy showed interest she would have said, "Nope! I'm happily married!"  Instead, she was open to the idea just like I was a couple years ago with a co-worker (although that didn't go beyond flirting before I was caught and stopped it).  I think I am partly responsible.  I got very comfortable in the relationship and admit that I could have done a lot more to make Jennie feel important over the years than I did.  Instead I just sat back and just did stuff on birthdays and holidays rather than really working on it just near the end after she told me she wasn't happy.

I think she was also just getting bad advice from good friends who happen to be bad or inexperienced at long-term relationships themselves.  Seriously, what can a double-divorcee who is currently trying to sabotage her third marriage have to say about a successful relationship?  It boggles my mind why Jennie would listen to her.  And the other girl is like 24.  They fed the beast, so to speak.  I think it just served to confuse her.

Anyway, I think there are lessons that I have learned from this and I'll share it since most of the people here are younger than me.  Long term relationships are a lot of work.  Avoid getting too comfortable.  When the going gets tough, work on it.  Don't ignore it or give up.  Never assume anything.  Show your spouse/mate that you care about them all the time.  Learn what emotional needs they have and fill them.  Seriously, that The Five Languages of Love book is pretty good.  Read it.  Be open and honest all the time.  Don't be a nag, but if something is seriously bothering you, ensure that your significant other understands that.  If someone is treating you poorly by being unnecessarily cruel for even small things, stand up for yourself because you deserve better than to be treated like that.

[Cobra951]

Goddammit.  How I hate being right sometimes.  I'm so sorry, Scott.  Times will be hard for you, for a while.  In all likelihood, they will get harder, until the storm passes.

Sorry about the stupid argument over the console thing.  That is meaningless crap.  What you're going through now is as real as it gets.

Pug's last post [#19, actually] is pretty good.  To that I'll add that you should hire your own divorce attorney ASAP.  Use the infidelity angle, if the Florida courts allow it.  Under no circumstances should you accept unchallenged any financial responsibility for her or for her child in the future.  This is where things can get backhanded and dirty, and that's why you'll absolutely need a good lawyer duking it out for you.

Hang in there, buddy.  You're still young and good-looking.  You'll be back on your feet before you know it.  Just don't let emotional weakness now hang an albatross around your neck for the rest of your life.

[Pugnate]

To me this thread has been very revealing about Scottws. I am impressed how in touch you are with your emotions. This is your strength though it will also mean you will hurt more. I wish I had advise on how to turn off your emotions. I haven't figured it out myself. But we are here for you.

Moreover, I am impressed that you are brutally honest about yourself with yourself. Some people lie to themselves their whole lives, but I have respect for your honesty. I think I am a year older than you, but I'll pick up The Five Languages of Love.

Regarding the friends thing, when my wife and I were getting married there were a number of fears that came up for her. They were unfounded and downright weird. She was concerned about infidelity and how her inlaws would mistreat her. Both were untrue, as she soon realized.

Ultimately it turned out that these strange fears were being fed by her divorced friends. They aren't bad friends... I guess it was a strange time for them to see a friend getting happily married when they had had terrible experiences.

Anyway, as Cobra said, you have a lot going for you that will help you overcome this difficult time.

[scottws]

I kept my previously scheduled appointment with the therapist this morning, a solo one.  Of course I told her everything.  She broke out this guide for cheaters that explains the stuff they need to do to rebuild trust if they truly want to fix the relationship and be with their spouse.

I don't remember all of the items off-hand and the guide is in my car, but one was coming completely clean and giving completely honest answers for any question asked, because telling half truths or further lies that get discovered later only serves to deepen the mistrust (*ahem*).  Another was being open about where she is at all times, taking me with her to places she normally goes alone, and putting on hold things like nights out with the girls (*ahem*).  Another was offering up access to her private life, like email and Facebook passwords, access to her phone, credit card statements, etc.  Still another was understanding that the timeline to healing isn't on the cheaters schedule, i.e. the cheater can't say something like, "I've been honest and completely open with you for three weeks now, can't you just move on from it!"  Still another was completely cutting off the relationship with the other person involved in the affair.

The sad thing was that, while Jennie did cut off the other relationship, she didn't really do any of the other things on the list.  It was pretty telling.

I also mentioned to the therapist that Jennie told her friends that, while she thought the couples' therapy session went well, she thought the book was a joke and found it annoying when she saw me reading it.  The therapist's response was, "Wow.  Well, unfortunately, that says a lot."

Jennie has been sort of lashing out at me.  I talked to her sister for a long time yesterday and I guess word got back to Jennie and she wasn't happy about it.  She says I'm dragging her through the mud and wants me to stop talking to her family.  That's crazy.  They're my family too.  I'm especially close to her mom and sister.  Alas, it's not surprising.  Jennie acts like a cornered animal when she feels like she's on the defensive and she's always been like that.

I've decided I will be as amicable and cordial to Jennie as possible, no matter how she lashes out and what she says.  I haven't done anything wrong.  I am resisting urges to be passive-aggressive.  For instance, this morning I came across this article and almost posted it to Facebook, but I stopped myself.  That's not who I am.  Things like that don't serve a constructive purpose and nothing good will come out of it.  Someday, I hope that we can both forgive each other for our respective actions and failings and be friendly.  Not friends that spend a lot of time together, but friendly enough where we could be in the same room and even conversation together and it would be fine.  The only way to accomplish that is to not resort to passive-aggressive or outright offensive behavior and be amicable and reasonable.  I don't mean be a pushover, but resist urges to do damage to her.

The only tricky part will be the house.  She already told me a few months ago that if we ever got divorced, she would want to keep the house to ensure the most possible stability for her son.  The issue is that we both own it.  So she would have to buy me out, and that's not always easy to do.  She might have to sell the house.  I'm just hoping that when it comes to discussing that part that it won't be an issue that turns it into one of those ugly, nasty divorces you hear about.  It wasn't an issue for two guys I talked to at work who went through divorce, but Jennie isn't always the most rational human being so it remains to be seen.

I went out with my old manager for drinks last night.  I have nothing but the highest respect for that man.  He's a brilliant mind and an excellent communicator.  It turns out he's also a bit of a philosopher.  He gave me some really great advice and it helped quite a bit to be out socializing.  He actually wants me to move in with he and his fiancee.  I told him no, I didn't want to be a third wheel, but he's insisting.  The thing is, I know the guy is being 100% genuine and it's not just an extension of an offer for help because it's a kind thing to do.

I'm not sure if I will take him up on it, but I might.  I'm really close with my mother-in-law, but she's really pushing me (and maybe Jennie when I'm not around) to try to work it out.  I keep telling her that I've been trying to work it out for the last six months and all I got out of it was cheated on, lied to, avoidance, and a brick wall and I owe it to myself to seek something better than that because I deserve it.  I know it's because she thinks I am a great guy and exactly what Jennie needs and she's fearful of what rash choices Jennie will make in the near future that will be bad for both her own and her son's welfare.  Jennie has a history of doing some pretty wild stuff during tumultuous times like this.

Anyway, please don't think of all this as a "look at me" or "woe is me" thing.  It just helps to get it all out there, even just the act of typing the words has a soothing effect.

[Cobra951]

Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.  "Those ugly divorces" are the rule, not the exception.  You already hit upon the biggest cause of them--money.  The house represents a ton of it.  Of course she wants it, and courts will be sympathetic with the parent who has custody of children.

If it really is over, and you're not still working on reconciliation, lawyer up, man.  Think of it as a lifelong investment, rather than an unwelcome expense.  And say nothing to her of any significance.  Not one word.

[gpw11]

Man, reading all this makes me 50% angry 50% sad.  I couldn't even imagine how much I'd lose my shit.

[scottws]

Believe me, I have been losing my shit.  Not in an angry way most of the time.  A couple of years ago, I ran a half marathon and it was by far the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life.  That doesn't hold a candle to what I'm going through now.  The emotional trauma seems to trump the physical trauma pretty easily.

Today is better than the last couple so far, but I realize that it's just a temporary feeling and I'll be up and down for awhile as things trigger various memories, good and bad.

I can't believe I've stuck it out at work, though yesterday was particularly difficult and I almost left.  I almost called in today after the appointment, but decided not to.  I've been okay thus far today but I haven't gotten much work done.  The management here knows what's going on and we've had several divorces in the last couple of years, so they are thankfully understanding and very patient.

The one thing I am continuing to struggle with is why did she stick around?  Why did she say she wanted to work on it and literally not work on it at all?  If she was so disconnected from me that she didn't even want to try to reconnect, why not say something and leave me?  She said herself that she didn't want to just be in a relationship where we were roommates, but that's pretty much what we were and she was doing nothing to make it more than that.  Why lash out at me if this is what she really wanted anyway?

I'll never have the answers to those questions, but I can't stop myself from continuing to asking them.

As far as the lawyer thing, I might pursue a Simple Dissolution of Marriage.  Apparently it is far cheaper and faster, but it requires both parties to work together amicably towards a common goal.  I'm not too worried about alimony or child support.  We both work and make the same amount of money.  As far as child support, I never adopted my stepson, she works, and her previous husband pays child support already.  I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but that I think the chances are lower than they might be for other couples.  This appears to have some good news for me, but of course, IANAL.

[Cobra951]

If you go the simple-dissolution route, make sure she doesn't hire a lawyer.  At least here in Ohio, you can't hire a lawyer who will represent both of you (conflict of interest).  I'd be surprised if this were different in Florida.  So, if she hires a lawyer purportedly to handle the easy way out for you both, be wary--get your own.

[scottws]

I talked to her on the phone this evening. It was a little testy, but I ensured that we didn't get into any arguments and that I didn't say anything spiteful or try to assign blame for anything (nor take any either).

She's playing the victim because I'm the one that left her. On one hand it blows my mind and on the other hand doesn't surprise me at all.  But yeah, she was lashing out a little and showed no remorse at all.  She's a little resentful because I'm turning her life upside down. I told her I didn't understand why she was acting like that, after all isn't this something she wanted anyway?  She didn't really say, except for "I never said that". Yeah, OK.

I asked if she read the note I left the night I moved out where I revealed my source of information and also had some kind words of hope for the future (a separate, but good future for both of us). She said she did, but didn't try to discuss anything or explain anything I found and I didn't push.

It definitely sounds like I will need to talk to a lawyer. She was trying to tell me that she was going to keep the house and that they can take my name off the mortgage as part of a court order and that would be it. Uh no, it doesn't work like that. I told her I wanted her to buy me out (refinance and then pay me half the equity) and and she wasn't having that at all.

People keep telling me, "Watch. She knows she was wrong, made a big mistake, and her overwhelming guilt will have her running back to you begging to take her back." I don't expect that at all.  She's a very stubborn, willful, proud woman and I don't think she will ever tell me she was wrong even if she tells other people and knows herself.  To me, that's a good thing because otherwise I might actually fall for it and the mere fact that she can't even muster a basic "I'm sorry" reinforces why I left in the first place.

[Pugnate]

Anyway, please don't think of all this as a "look at me" or "woe is me" thing.  It just helps to get it all out there, even just the act of typing the words has a soothing effect.

No, no one is thinking that at all...

Please don't take it easy when it comes to the house. Take Cobra's advice. Though right now it seems money has little meaning for you, which is understandable, but once the emotional roller coaster is over, you may regret ignoring the house.

Regarding why she stuck around. Who knows. I am guessing she found it difficult to end it but didn't want to be the one who did it. She couldn't do it probably out of guilt. All of these things point out to a person who doesn't open up so easily, and who has difficultly dealing with their feelings.

I hope this doesn't sound inappropriate, but she seems quite different from you, at least in terms of processing emotions and communicating. Personally speaking, it's understandable that people process their emotions at their own pace, but eventually they should process them. It has been months and it seems she doesn't have any remorse for her behavior.

[scottws]

I forgot how many hours there were on Saturday.

[Pugnate]

It's great that you are still in therapy. That shows you are willing to get the help you need. Not everyone is willing to do that.

Brain zaps are normal. Just be gentle with yourself. Buy yourself something you like. You deserve it. As long as you are healing at therapy, going to work, there is nothing wrong with spending your extra time doing something fun with a new toy.

[scottws]

It has been months and it seems she doesn't have any remorse for her behavior.

Actually, she did show remorse when I first discovered the affair.  Why she didn't come clean about everything at the time, I'll never know.  That was the time to do it, obviously.  She's just remorseless now for some unexplainable reason.

I talked to her today and asked if I could spend some time with my stepson, and she said yes.  We also talked for a little and it was very civil and friendly, but also matter-of-fact.  Like, "I cleaned out the garage and I consolidated all of your stuff in these bins and put all your stuff in this section."  That's good, I guess.

It was really good to spend time with my stepson.  We tossed baseball for an hour and got some ice cream and talked.  I think we both really needed it.

My old manager had recommended the book The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.  I haven't bought it yet, but he did describe that basically the message of the book is that everyone is an artist and paints things in their life in such a way that that's how things and people appear to you.  If you paint a certain person as untrustworthy, mean, annoying, etc. then that's how they will always be to you but if you paint someone in a more positive light, then that is what will come to you.  It's sort of a self-help concept that he says transformed his life.  He said even though his marriage was terrible (I thought not having sex for six months was bad... try five years) and the divorce a bitter one, he started dating his current fiancee during his separation prior to legal divorce.  This was a major source of animosity during the divorce, but now his ex-wife and current fiancee go shopping together and his ex-mother-in-law and mother-in-law-to-be have become friends and talk on the phone all the time.  He said it was only possible because he "painted" it that way.  It's very metaphysical, but he swears by it.

So I've been trying to "paint" Jennie positively since then and so far it seems to be working.  She seems to be comfortable talking to me again, which she clearly wasn't before.  It sounds weird, but maybe there is really something to it.

Changing direction...  One thing I didn't mention here is that the night I confronted Jennie (Wednesday), she told me that every time I did something extra nice or sweet to or for her, she thought I was basically rubbing her face in how much of a bitch she was and how much better I was than her.  At the time, all I did was show a look of genuine shock and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way, because that wasn't my intention at all."  After all, I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy; what you see is what you get.  I don't have ulterior motives or mastermind plans that I orchestrate.  Everything I say and do is 100% what it is on the face of it.  In some ways, this is a negative.  For instance, I'll never be some shark CEO of a megacorp or successful lobbyist or politician.  But what I will be is a truly good person and a man of great integrity.

I've had nothing but time to think since Wednesday, and I've come to realize that Jennie's reaction to those gestures must have come from a feeling of extreme guilt.  So instead of all my extra hard work paying off, it did the opposite.  She felt so guilty that for every nice thing I did, it was a subconscious reminder to her about... something.  Maybe her infidelity, lack of attention and affection towards me, negative thoughts towards me, or something else.  This isn't something she's admitted, but it must be so.  How else could someone interpret a nice gesture in such a negative way?

I've received a lot of advice over the past few days about this situation.  Almost universally, it is "ditch the bitch", but there are three dissenting opinions.  Of course they are my mother-in-law, father-in-law, and sister-in-law.  I take that as a great compliment, as if they are basically saying, "You are a fantastic guy and we know that Jennie is better off with you than anyone else and she screwed this up royally."  I don't mean to be immodest, but I agree with them.  I am a great guy.  I'm also a pretty good looking guy, but that's besides the point.  I've got my head on straight, I'm successful in my career, I'm stable, I'm reliable, I'm handy, I'm not a physical or emotional abuser, and I pride myself as a man of integrity above all else.

But that doesn't mean I'm the right guy for Jennie.  I'm almost never the life of the party.  I have a pretty dorky personality.  I can't and don't dance, except for amusement of others.  I'm not tall.  I can be pretty lazy.  My favorite hobby is movies and my second favorite is video games (and you guys know how much I've cared about video games in the last few years).  While I took up distance running for exercise purposes a couple years ago, I am not an athlete.  I like to drink.  I'm not spontaneous and being romantic to me means looking up romantic places to eat and visit on the Internet and then doing that.

I don't have a low self-esteem, I'm just honest about myself and know who I am.  I'm proud of being a dork, for instance, and I love rocking my Yoda-with-sunglasses t-shirt.

So, while I am a good person, I might just not be the person Jennie wants at this point in her life and that's how this all started.  The heart wants what it wants (and doesn't what it doesn't).  Despite all that has happened and the dagger sticking out of my heart since Tuesday, I love Jennie deeply despite everything.  I care that she is and will be happy, worry about how she might do without me with all the bills she will have to pay and having a dependent on top of that.  That said, I have to make sure that I love myself too and make the correct choices for me.  It sucks that there is collateral damage, turmoil, and financial uncertainty for all involved, but sometimes the end result is worth all that for everyone.

I heard a song called "Failure" from Breaking Benjamin earlier today on Pandora.  After review, the lyrics are very dark but one of the lines that jumped out to me while listening was "the dark before the dawn".  Might it be a sign?

[PyroMenace]

Wow, that is probably one of the most introspective and eye opening reads I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I have no personal experience with marriage or even long term relationships, but on some level everyone can relate to a relationship coming to its end. And I also come from a family full of divorcing relatives and not the best at sorting through emotions, but that's common with most people. I know it probably feels like a huge chunk of time was wasted for you, but it seems like you've learned A LOT from this ordeal and you may look in hindsight and wish you knew it sooner but... it's still better than not having the wisdom at all. Not many know themselves as much as they think they do or confess to, and after reading that I'd say you're definitely much higher than the average at your age. Thank you for sharing this, seriously.

[Pugnate]

I second what Pyro said and I also want to thank you for the incredible read.